Colorism

Speaker 1: Roots, Race, and Culture is made possible in part by the contributions to PBS Utah from listeners like you. Thank you. Danor Gerald: Hey, everybody. You're listening to Roots, Race, and Culture, a new podcast from PBS Utah. Lonzo Liggins: If you like what you hear, we hope you'll subscribe. Leave us a review and share with your friends. Danor Gerald: All right, now. Let's get this thing started. Hello and welcome to Roots, Race, and Culture, a new show on PBS Utah where we bring you into candid conversations about shared cultural experiences. Hi, I'm Danor Gerald. Lonzo Liggins: And I'm Lonzo Liggins. We are going to be discussing a very hot-button topic today about the subject of colorism. What is colorism? Why don't we start by defining what colorism actually is. According to Merriam-Webster, here is the definition of colorism. "Prejudice or discrimination against individuals with a dark skin tone, typically among people of the same ethnic or racial group." Which makes me wonder, does having light or dark skin impact your daily life? Is there an advantage to light or dark skin right here in Utah? Let's find out. First, let's meet our guests. Why don't we start with you, Darienne? Darienne Debrule: Hi, I'm Darienne Debrule. I'm a student here at the University of Utah. I study political science, economics, and communications. I'm actually from Utah, so I can attest to how it is in Utah. I also am mixed race, so I've seen how colorism has played out in both family dynamics, as well as friendships and relationships. Lonzo Liggins: Man, I know how that works. Edmund? Edmund Fong: Hi, everyone. Great to be on the show. I'm Edmund Fong. I'm a professor of political science and ethnic studies at the UofU. A little bit about myself. I'm not from Utah. I'm from Oakland originally. That's where I grew up. I've lived about a decade in New York City, but now I'm here. Danor Gerald: Awesome. How long have you been in Utah? Edmund Fong: Since 2008, when Barack Obama was elected president. Lonzo Liggins: There we go. Coming from the O. Danor Gerald: That's an interesting time to get here. Lonzo Liggins: I love Oakland, though. Oakland's kind of a crazy city. Danor Gerald: Fantastic. Lonzo Liggins: We were discussing colorism that's going on currently today in society. As I was doing some research for this, come across a news story about this actress. Her name is Thandiwe Newton. I'm sure you guys have heard about it. She recently released this apology where she talked about taking roles from darker-skinned actresses, because she was light skinned and she had more of an advantage. I thought that was really interesting, because there's other ... It's been happening in the news lately. There was another story about a movie where they were talking about ... Is that Lin-Manuel Miranda? Danor Gerald: Lin-Manuel Miranda. He did this movie called In The Heights. Very successful film. It's about this Afro-Latin community in New York where you spent a lot of your life. In that particular community, people are darker skinned. They're Afro-Latin, right? But, in the movie, all of these lead characters were played by light-skinned actors, just like what Thandiwe has been being accused of. There was a lot of backlash from people in that community, saying that it's not an authentic representation of who they are. People are becoming really, really sensitive to this topic, and so we want to hear your perspectives on this as well. You say that you're from Utah, and you've seen colorism play out in your family. Is that with your sisters? Explain that to us. Darienne Debrule: Yeah. Actually most dominantly with my sisters. Me and my two sisters, we're all mixed race, but we're all a very different complexion. My youngest sister is what people would classify as dark skin, and my middle sister is white passing. Then I'm in between. Just even seeing their experiences growing up in comparison to mine ... I've seen that, my middle sister, she doesn't deal with as much racism or hardship when it comes to race, just because she is white passing. People assume that she's white until they see her really curly hair. But, my youngest sister, she's actually had to deal with a lot of problems regarding racism, and kids talking about her skin color, and saying she doesn't belong because she is so dark. People are more aware of her differences, if that makes sense. Danor Gerald: This is ... Are you guys close together in age? Darienne Debrule: We're not close in age. I'm 21, and then she's 12 and 9. Lonzo Liggins: You're not there to back them up and help them out in this situation? Darienne Debrule: I'm not there to back them up. I can talk to them about it, and I remember even sitting down with my mom. I told her that my youngest sister's going to have the hardest time when it comes to race issues, and my mom didn't really understand. But then, as I did my research on colorism and she read my paper, she was like, "I see what you mean now." Lonzo Liggins: Yeah. Especially when it comes to dating. We'll get into that in a minute. How about you, Edmund? Danor Gerald: Professor Fong, in the Asian culture, how does the lightness or darkness of your skin tone affect people's lives? Edmund Fong: Yeah. Colorism is a huge issue across Asia. Here in the United States, it's so intertwined with racism so that ... I think, for Asian-American communities, there's more prevalence, less so on skin tone, than on just other features, or around aspirational whiteness, or whatnot. Danor Gerald: Okay. So ... Lonzo Liggins: What is aspirational whiteness? Danor Gerald: Yeah. Define that. Edmund Fong: That's a kind of fancy term that academics throw around. Jargony term, but ... Yeah. Basically aspiring to standards, whether they be skin tone, or other features, or other cultural norms that are associated with whites. Danor Gerald: Okay. Do you see this in your family at all? Do people tend to want to have lighter skin? Where do you fall in that? Edmund Fong: I would situate myself somewhere in the middle in terms of skin tone variations. I think there isn't a whole lot of variation within my immediate family around skin tone, so we didn't really have ... Or, I can't really say that that was by itself a really strong feature. But, certainly, race did shape our environments growing up, me and my sister, where we're impacted by ... Caught in that pecking order, if you will, of those who are more able to pass it with the cool kids, all that stuff, and dating as well. Danor Gerald: Okay. I'd like to hear from either one of you about the dating thing, now, so, how- Lonzo Liggins: Let me jump in on that train too. We'll talk about dating. Danor Gerald: How- Darienne Debrule: You benefit because you're light skinned. Lonzo Liggins: Maybe. Danor Gerald: Here we ... Okay. Lonzo Liggins: We'll get into that discussion. Let's start with you. I want to hear your experience with dating. Darienne Debrule: My experience with dating in Utah was kind of different. There's just not a lot of black men, and the black men that are here, they do tend to like white women, because that's why they're socialized around. You can't fault people for wanting what they're socialized with. But, when I came to college, something that stood out to me ... I will say that I do benefit from colorism in this way, and that I'm mixed. Technically I'm what most black men would want. They want a mixed-race woman or a light-skinned black woman. Lonzo Liggins: Yes, indeed. Darienne Debrule: I remember I would talk to some of my guy friends, and they'd be like, "I would never date a dark-skinned woman, because I don't want my kids to be dark skinned." Danor Gerald: Really? Darienne Debrule: Yes. Lonzo Liggins: Man. Yeah, that's- Darienne Debrule: I was like, "First of all, that's not probably something you should say," but I think it speaks to something of how there's such a self hatred within the African-American community of having dark skin. They know the struggles that come with having darker skin, and they don't want to give that to their children. By being with somebody that's white or being with somebody that's light skinned, the probability of their children having lighter skin is higher. Danor Gerald: Tell us about dating in your experience, or in the Asian culture. Do you guys have some of those same issues? Edmund Fong: For younger generations, Asian Americans, there's probably not that much skin tone in terms of dating preferences, but it's something you see with older generations, immigrant ... Every time I go back to the Bay Area, I have some aunties who always note how I've gotten darker since being here in Utah, because we're exposed to UV radiation. They'll say, "You've gotten so dark," and there's not a positive connotation around that. Danor Gerald: Oh, man. Lonzo Liggins: See, I've seen ... When I go to stores, I'll see these lightning creams, particularly in the Asian markets. Edmund Fong: Yeah. Lonzo Liggins: I'll go and get it somewhere, because I'll get blotches sometimes. Edmund Fong: It's over an $8-billion industry. Danor Gerald: What? Lonzo Liggins: See, that's the thing. Danor Gerald: That's Korea, China? Where is all this money- Edmund Fong: That's Korea, China, Philippines, India. Yeah. Pretty much all across Malaysia, all across Asia. Lonzo Liggins: There's a goal to be lighter? Edmund Fong: Yes. Lonzo Liggins: Lighter has what advantage? Lighter means what? Edmund Fong: Lighter is associated with having a higher status, wealthier, more pure. Lonzo Liggins: Is that because it's aligned with white people? Is that what ... See, this is where colorism gets confusing to me. Edmund Fong: It's murky. Lonzo Liggins: Because it seems like we all, as different races, we put white people on this pedestal where they get to sit at the top of this little hill, and just be like, "You can be like us, and you can be ... You're getting closer, and you're getting closer." Then we all thrive to be like that, and it seems like that's where this weird idea of colorism comes from, because there's a history of it. Darienne Debrule: Yeah. I was actually going to say, it's not just the aspiration to whiteness, it's ... People that are of darker skin were usually working outside, especially in the Asian-American culture. Those were usually the plantation and field workers. Danor Gerald: Sure. Lonzo Liggins: There we go. Darienne Debrule: The darker skin and tanning got associated with not having as high of a status. Then, in the African-American community, it comes from slavery where light-skinned slaves tended to be the house workers, and that was considered the better slave position to be in. Then those people also got educated. They learned to read and write in a way that plantation workers didn't. Then, when you get into the civil rights era or even right before the civil rights era, the black, I guess, elite, because they came from people that knew how to read and write, they were better able to get jobs or assimilate into white society because they had a longer lineage of education, or knowing how to assimilate into white culture. Edmund Fong: There are advantages. Lonzo Liggins: I'm going to show you something real quick. There's this picture that we found of these white slave ... Here's the thing about them. They look very white, but they're actually black. They're actually biracial, and then I think one of them is what would be considered a quadroon, or quarter black. They used this picture ... These would be what you would call the house Negros, that ... You and I, we would apparently be house Negros. You'd be in the field. Danor Gerald: I'd be working hard. Lonzo Liggins: They used these pictures back in the day in order to gain support for the North when they were trying to fight the South, and say, "These are the type of people that are being put into slavery," these children. Obviously the public, viewing these pictures of kids that appeared to be white, were very sympathetic, and the money started pouring in. That was one of their advertising tactics. Danor Gerald: That was a fundraising tactic. Lonzo Liggins: It was a fundraising ... And it worked, apparently. They [inaudible 00:10:29]- Edmund Fong: Plessy v. Ferguson, the landmark Supreme Court case around segregation, they chose someone who was light skinned in order to make that test case challenging segregation. Danor Gerald: Yeah. This has been a tactic that's been used quite a bit, colorism, as a way of helping to further the cause. Even though all people were benefiting, they used the iconic white-passing, passe blanc people to help sway the voter, whatever the case may be. Lonzo Liggins: Yeah. But when you look at today ... Let's take, for example, Vin Diesel. I think he's a really good example of celebrities today. We don't know what race he is, right? He never talks about his race, ever. Danor Gerald: Right. He looks Italian. Lonzo Liggins: Right. He gets booked for Italian parts a lot, and his kids clearly ... You could tell they're curly haired, and they've got black in them. His wife is actually Hispanic, so the black part of his kids clearly came from him, but he never really discusses that openly because there's some advantage to not discussing it. Which makes you wonder, what is the advantage of not discussing race in our society? Why would he not want to talk about the black part of himself? What do you think? Darienne Debrule: I think, because if you don't talk about the black part of yourself, you can more easily assimilate into white culture, especially with people that are white passing. Because, unless they explicitly say, "I am black," people aren't going to group them that way. I think that goes to show that there is a disadvantage to being black and being dark skinned, if people aren't even wanting to claim it. To bring up something you brought up earlier, you said that it's easier for voters to digest. I honestly don't think Barack Obama would've been elected if he was of darker skin, or if he wasn't as readily able to assimilate into white culture. Danor Gerald: You read my mind now, as a political- Lonzo Liggins: Joe Biden called him "clean" looking. Danor Gerald: Clean looking. Lonzo Liggins: Back in the day. Yeah. Danor Gerald: Yeah. As a political science professor, an expert on the subject, do you think that that has some benefits, as far as someone with political aspirations? Edmund Fong: Darker skin, or lighter skin? Danor Gerald: Either or. Edmund Fong: I think it's clear. It's been extensively studied that lighter skin tone is correlated with your chances of success as a political candidate. That's been studied, so ... Lonzo Liggins: That brings up another topic. We were speaking earlier in the green room, and you were talking about ... Colorism's not just about skin tone, it's also about features. To me it just seems like it's also about how you behave that's in direct correlation with white people. Like the more you act like them, the more that seems to be acceptable. Do you know what I'm saying? You with me on that? Darienne Debrule: Yeah. Growing up in Utah, I was assimilated around a lot of white people. People would always be like, "You're whitewashed." Which I don't necessarily think is a great term, because I don't necessarily think talking proper, or dressing a certain way, or acting a certain way means that you're whitewashed. But that's something that, a lot of people, they do believe and they do see. Danor Gerald: There are certain expectations. I wonder, as far as what you've experienced in Asian culture, do people have expectations of, "You're Chinese enough," or, "No, you seem a little whitewashed." Does that happen? Edmund Fong: There is in Asia. I grew up in the US, but then we've ... The first time I visited Hong Kong, where my family's from, my parents are from, yeah. There was a clear stigma. There's a term for it called ABC, American born Chinese. It's generally, again, not a positive connotation. Where the sense is we're not authentic Chinese, or we're not- Danor Gerald: "You're not Chinese enough." Edmund Fong: Yeah. Not Chinese enough. Danor Gerald: ABC, like, "You're basic." Edmund Fong: Yeah. Then, being caught in between here, then you're caught in the pecking order between white and black, and often not ... Model minority. That's where that comes in. Where you're still a minority, but you're, quote, unquote, "a model minority," whatever that means. Danor Gerald: That's interesting, because I hear this from Lonzo a lot, that a lot of people in white society look at Asians as the perfect example of what minority people should be doing. [inaudible 00:14:24] Lonzo Liggins: Which Asians? That's the thing. That's the trick with it. Edmund Fong: Yeah. Very ... Sure. Lonzo Liggins: There's a, really, trick to that, that little model minority thing. Danor Gerald: Yes. Tell us about that. Edmund Fong: Skin color is a big part of that as well. Generally East Asian countries, again, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, which tend to have lighter skin tones, are generally given preference, as opposed to more southern-based Asians, Southeast Asia, or what have you. Danor Gerald: That's fascinating. Lonzo Liggins: It seems like skin tone, in particular with people who may be light skinned, sometimes they'll use race to their advantage. For example, Halsey. Okay? You guys know who she is. She's the singer. She is openly ... She's biracial, but people can't tell that she's biracial. She looks white. She openly talks about being black. It's an advantage for her. I'm guessing it's because of the music that she's doing, but she could just as well do that music ... Mariah Carey's the same way. She could just as well do that music and say, "Look, it doesn't matter what race I'm doing. You like my music, buy my albums. Why not?" On the flip side of that coin, is there an advantage to having dark skin? Is what I'm asking, basically. Danor Gerald: Yes. I would say so. Lonzo Liggins: Basically, yes, there's advantage. Danor Gerald: Emphatically, asides from the melanin protecting us from those UV rays you talked about. I think that there is some identity crisis that can be dealt with when you're somewhere in the middle. For me, I've been black my whole life. Always known that I'm black. I don't shy away from that fact, and I don't have that issue- Lonzo Liggins: You can't shy away from ... Danor Gerald: No, there's plenty of ... Like you say, there's aspirations of whiteness, right? Lonzo Liggins: Right. Danor Gerald: But there's a side of me that's really grateful that I have darker skin, because it makes me feel like I have to find comfort in that, and that there's people that ... I walk down the street, I look at them, and we just give them the nod. Like, "I know what you're going through." You know what I mean? It's this instant bond that shows the connection of that shared cultural experience, right? Lonzo Liggins: Right. Danor Gerald: That we have. It's curious to me ... Do you guys ever think that there would be an advantage? Like you said, you're middle ground when it comes to Asian. Do you find that good, bad? Edmund Fong: I don't see that being a positive thing in Asian-American cultures, but there's street cred attached to having darker skin, right? Lonzo Liggins: Right. There you go. Edmund Fong: Especially in the US, I think that can play to the advantage of people, especially people who I think want to appear like they have more street cred, and actually may darken their skin tone. Danor Gerald: Think about it. White people- Edmund Fong: Ariana Grande. Danor Gerald: White people go and get tans and a lot of creams. It's not like Asia, they're trying to get lighter, a lot of them are trying to get darker, right? They're trying to appear black culturally, whether their hairstyle ... There's a ... One of the actresses. Who was it? Kanye's former- Darienne Debrule: Kim Kardashian? Danor Gerald: Kim Kardashian got in a lot of trouble because she did a whole photo spread where she was doing photos like these iconic black female pictures over the years, celebrities. I think that a lot of people want to appear black as well, because it's street cred, like you say. Lonzo Liggins: To go back to your question about dating, how was it for me, that was a challenge for me as well, because ... I'll tell you why. I didn't have issues when it came to white women. We were just talking about this yesterday. Because I was considered to be this gateway drug, this intro into black men, because they could just come in and just ... He coined that phrase. I'm ... Danor Gerald: [inaudible 00:18:10] Lonzo Liggins: But here was the problem that I had when I would want to date a black woman, okay? Or women that liked black men. I was never black enough. They'd always say, "You talk this way." They would want the darker-skinned brothers, and they would say, "That's the guy that I want." When it comes to acting, because I'm an actor, so when it comes to getting parts, Danor walks in the door and I walk in the door, he might get chosen over me because they're looking for a black actor. They might look at me and say, "Is he black? Is he Puerto Rican? Is he Brazilian?" The minute they start asking that, I'm out, and he's in. If they're looking for that type of thing, you know what I mean? Danor Gerald: Let me ask you this. Have you ever been mistaken for another race, or anything like that? Edmund Fong: Yeah. Growing up in Oakland, people often would think I was Mexican. Danor Gerald: Really? Edmund Fong: Yeah. Danor Gerald: Did you work that to your advantage? Did you ... Edmund Fong: I don't think so. It puzzled me at the time, but ... Yeah. Lonzo Liggins: Missed out on some opportunity, there. Opened up the dating pool at least. Edmund Fong: Yeah. Getting back to what was said, yeah, I did enjoy sort of playing both sides, if I could, right? There were certain advantages of mixing in with different sort of crowds, and so- Danor Gerald: That's good. Yeah. There's a definite flexibility there that allows you to have some social advantages. Lonzo Liggins: I bet we get Dominican, right? Darienne Debrule: For me, people would be like, "What are you?" I remember that was a question. Or, "Where are you from?" But when they ask, "Where are you from?" they're not asking what state I'm from, they're asking- Lonzo Liggins: What country. Darienne Debrule: Yeah. What country, or, "What's your racial or ethnic background?" It's obvious that I probably have some black in me, but they're trying to figure out the rest. They're like, "I don't think you're completely black, so what else do we have going on here?" I think that's something that, when you're a lighter skin tone, that's what you deal with. Obviously nobody's going to look at you and be like, "What are you?" Even if they did, you'd be like, "I'm obviously black." Danor Gerald: A human being. Lonzo Liggins: [inaudible 00:19:54] Darienne Debrule: Oh, my gosh. I used to tell people that. I finally got to the point where I was like, "I'm a human." They'd be like, "Oh." I'm like, "Yeah." Danor Gerald: I know there's a term that they've said about you before in the dating area, and we're going to talk about that. But what can we in this area and community of Utah do to help with this issue of colorism? Do you guys have any insights from your own perspective on that? Darienne Debrule: Yeah. I think a big thing is to stop using terms like "whitewashed," or attributing how people talk or the way they interact with society as being white, and just seeing it as them as a person instead of associating it with their race. Danor Gerald: Or not calling you exotic. I'm sure you've had that. Darienne Debrule: Okay. Yeah. Or that. That would help too. Yeah. Not referring people as exotic, or asking people what are they, or stuff like that. Yeah. Danor Gerald: That's great. How about you, Professor Fong? Edmund Fong: I think Utah has this reputation of being really homogenous and white. The more we can muddy that, literally, I think the better, right? Because the more diverse the state becomes, the more you see people and interact with people who are a variety of different cultures, skin tone, what have you, the more they'll challenge whatever assumptions they have about what they prefer and what they don't, right? Humanize these issues. Danor Gerald: That's great. Are you going to stick around for a while? Do you like it here? Edmund Fong: Yeah. This is my home now. Danor Gerald: Excellent. Edmund Fong: Like I said, I came here when Barack Obama was elected, and now I've lived through the Trump years. Hopefully the final Trump years. Danor Gerald: Yeah. Edmund Fong: Who knows. Danor Gerald: [inaudible 00:21:21] so, but ... Lonzo Liggins: I don't know these days, man. It's- Edmund Fong: Yeah. This is my home. Danor Gerald: We're lucky to have you. Thank you. Lonzo Liggins: We'll get back to this conversation on Roots, Race, and Culture in just a moment. Speaker 6: PBS Utah is also home to other dynamic podcasts. More Than Half covers some of the most challenging issues facing women in Utah, and how it takes all of us to make change happen. Here's a clip from the episode, A Separate Space. Speaker 7: I don't think a lot of people realize that it's just not common for people of color, especially women of color, to see themselves in the stories that we're reading. Speaker 6: Subscribe to More Than Half wherever you get your podcasts. Danor Gerald: Now back to Roots, Race, and Culture from PBS Utah. Lonzo Liggins: Yeah. I want to get into our discussion about, almost, the history of it, when you were talking about the way ... You touched on something that really hit me, and it was being called whitewashed. Being told how you speak, and how you behave, and how you act ... Really, that hit close to home, because I heard that a lot growing up. I'm sure you've heard it. I'm sure you've heard it as well. Edmund Fong: Yeah. I've heard it at this point. Lonzo Liggins: Can you elaborate on that, and talk a little bit more about the history of it? Because you wrote a great paper about it. Darienne Debrule: Thank you. Lonzo Liggins: We'd like to hear a little bit more of, number one, how we got to where it is with colorism, but also why it is that black people face that constant pushback with being called whitewashed if they talk a certain way. Darienne Debrule: Yeah. I think black people face that constant pushback of being called whitewashed, I think, more so than other minorities, because they had to try even harder than other minorities to assimilate into white culture because our culture is not so different, but ... Africa, and they came here. I think just over time they had to figure out a way ... "Okay. How can we best assimilate into white culture?" A lot of people did that by saying, "Okay. We're not going to use AAVE," African American Vernacular English, or whatever. Or, "We're going to shy away from those things, because that's what will make us appear white," or, "That's what will get our foot in the door." As opposed to when you're Asian American, when you're the model minority, you have other obstacles you have to get over when it comes to getting your foot in the door. But you don't have to worry about people saying, "You're not educated enough," or, "You're too black," or, "You're too," those things. Yeah. I think, over time, just as a way to survive in both corporate and, just, in society in general, that's what African Americans had to do. Danor Gerald: Right. Lonzo Liggins: Yeah. Danor Gerald: Did you ever feel like you were facing something where people were saying that you were whitewashed, or ... When you went to China, did you ever feel like that ABC thing was a negative thing? How about your personal- Edmund Fong: Yeah. Going back to Asia, or back to Asia and visiting for the first time, yeah, there was a certain stigma about being assimilated as Western, and therefore not authentically Chinese. Here in the States, growing up, again, I grew up in the Bay Area. There's tons of Asian Americans, tons of Chinese people. There wasn't that kind of intense stigma around either being too Chinese or not enough Chinese. But my wife is from the East Coast. She's Korean, and there weren't a whole lot of Koreans where she grew up. What I've noticed, and I kid her about, is that there was much more of a stigma around identity issues of being Korean back there. It can play out in different ways, I think. Yeah. Danor Gerald: I have a question for both of you. What is the most personal or traumatic experience that either you, a friend, or even someone in your family may have had regarding this topic of colorism, or whether or not you are white enough, dark enough, Chinese enough, black enough? Have you ever had anything that really tested your sense of self worth or identity? Darienne Debrule: Yeah. For me, growing up, I was called an Oreo. They're like, "You're black on the outside, but you're white on the inside." It's like, "First of all, I don't want to be compared to a food," as great as Oreos are. But, also, at the broader picture of it all, is it's like, "I don't understand why people are calling me white on the inside when the issues I deal with day in and day out are the issues of a black woman." Just because they think I talk white or because I have a lot of white friends, that doesn't mean that, when I go and experience the world, I'm experiencing the world as a white woman, because I'm not. I deal with the disadvantages that I'm placed in because I'm obviously a black woman. Just hearing those things would hurt me, because, like I talked about earlier, I don't see how somebody can be white on the inside. I don't think there's certain personality traits of white people. I think by continuing to say things like that, we're discounting other races or even just personality differences in the same race. Danor Gerald: Yeah. It's almost like they're disregarding your pain and the challenges that you're facing, because it's like, "You're white on the inside, so everything's great for your life," but it doesn't necessarily mean that's okay. Darienne Debrule: Yeah. Lonzo Liggins: I think there's ... I just want to touch on that real quick, because you mentioned what it feels like to be white on the inside, or be told that. I think that's one of the legacies of slavery, right? Because, unlike the Asian culture, we don't have a language. We don't have a culture that we can say, "This is what our definition of success is as black people," or, "This is what we've learned." If you were to take 10 different black people and put them in soundproof booths, and ask them what you think black culture is, you're going to get 10 different answers. Whereas you'd put 10 Jewish people, or 10 Asians, or 10 people from India from different booth, you're going to get a similar answer out of all of them because they've been able to keep their cultures intact. Part of the ugly legacy of slavery is that our culture got dismantled. Some people, they grew up in different areas, and so they speak a certain way. Then, other people, they grew up primarily around black people. I was watching this documentary about Chicago today, and the guy said, "I live in an area where I don't see any white people, ever. I don't see them." He said, "The only time we see white people is they come through here as cops and arrest us," or something like that. His idea of what being black is is going to be different what ours is, when we walk out the door and all we see are white people. I think that's a harmful term, Oreo, because it's not taken into consideration how we got scattered as slaves into different areas, and how we got there. It doesn't discredit our blackness. Edmund Fong: Yeah. Danor Gerald: You had to- Edmund Fong: The related term for Asian Americans is banana, right? Being- Danor Gerald: Really? Edmund Fong: [inaudible 00:27:59] Lonzo Liggins: Yeah. I think I've heard that. Danor Gerald: What is a banana? Is it like you're yellow on the outside- Edmund Fong: Bananas are yellow on the outside, and then pale or white on the inside, right? Danor Gerald: Is that like the ABC kind of thing? Edmund Fong: No, this is more like the Oreo [inaudible 00:28:10]. Danor Gerald: The Oreo. Okay. Lonzo Liggins: This is the Asian Oreo. Danor Gerald: Banana. I've never heard that before. Edmund Fong: Asian Oreo. Yeah. Lonzo Liggins: Yeah. Danor Gerald: What would be something that you would do or say that would cause someone to refer to you as a banana? Edmund Fong: If someone Asian American is acting, obviously, sort of white, or disdaining wanting any association with their Asian culture, then someone might say, "You're acting like a banana," or something like that. Danor Gerald: I want to dig into that. Does that mean the way you speak, the way you dress? What is a specific example? Edmund Fong: It could mean you refuse to speak your native Asian language. It could mean- Danor Gerald: What if you don't know it? Edmund Fong: Yeah, if you don't know it, then that's a double whammy right there. It's getting at what you're saying about having that connection with your ancestral culture, your roots being severed in some ways, or challenged. But it could mean just acting uppity, if you will, or- Danor Gerald: What about if you were dating a white person? Edmund Fong: Yeah. That could be a part of that too, a way to express- Lonzo Liggins: Is that an issue in Asian culture, when an Asian person is dating a white person? Edmund Fong: Yeah. Danor Gerald: [inaudible 00:29:30] Edmund Fong: It plays out in gendered ways. I think it's generally more prevalent among Asian-American females. Danor Gerald: Okay. Edmund Fong: The preference for white males. That has- Danor Gerald: Is that their preference, is- Edmund Fong: That has been studied. I don't want to ... It's not across the board, obviously, right? Danor Gerald: Sure. Edmund Fong: But I think that's more prevalent. There's a perception among Asian-American males that they are lower on the desirability rung, and so- Danor Gerald: In the totem pole of dating, type of thing? Lonzo Liggins: Yeah. We [inaudible 00:29:57]. Edmund Fong: That might actually make it even more intense for Asian-American males to aspire to dating a white female, right? Danor Gerald: Is that considered ... If you're an Asian-American male and you're dating or married to a white female, does that up your street cred, your social capital? Do people still call you banana, or it's like you've risen above- Edmund Fong: It wouldn't up your street cred. Danor Gerald: Okay. Edmund Fong: But it would certainly ... You could say that it raises your social capital. These are standards of beauty that affect all different groups in the US, more or less. Danor Gerald: I think "the standards of beauty" is a great term. Darienne Debrule: Yeah. To go off of that, also, black men in America, if you're married to a white woman or a light-skinned woman, you are seen as having higher social capital. That's why you'll often see professional athletes, or rappers, or even very successful businessmen that are black, they do tend to date and marry white women or light-skinned women. Danor Gerald: Yeah. That's ... Guilty as charged. Lonzo Liggins: There is this thing, to your point, where, in the black community, there is a huge stigma of interracial dating, nowadays even more so than ever, which I find bizarre. I'm troubled by it, because we fought so hard to be able to get to the point to where we could do whatever we wanted to do. Then all of a sudden we tell each other, "You can't do what you want do." That's such a weird place for me. Danor Gerald: It's strange, because you wonder about the idea of equality. We can all have this equal ground in terms of employment, or education, or all these social things, but then when it comes to the building of a family, all of a sudden there's some dos and don'ts, and some good and bad things. You said you're Chinese, and your wife is Korean. Was that tough for you? Is that considered interracial dating in Asian culture, or is that considered, "No, you"- Edmund Fong: Not interracial, but there are ethnic tensions there. Not my wife, but my first girlfriend was Korean. My mom just refused to meet this person, and tried to shut it down. That inter-ethic, international, Asian sort of rivalries do play out [inaudible 00:32:23]. Lonzo Liggins: Is there a pecking order with the countries? With Japanese, and with Chinese, and with Korean, is there like you're not [inaudible 00:32:32]? Edmund Fong: Oh, yeah. Danor Gerald: Tell us about it. I really want to know. Edmund Fong: My mom was pretty ... She's old school Chinese, and she had a prejudice against Vietnamese people. Danor Gerald: Vietnam? Okay. Edmund Fong: Vietnamese people. Yeah. As part of our global order, the global north, right? There's China, Japan, Korea are generally seen as the most prosperous Asian cultures, and especially Southeast Asians and Filipinos, they are on the lower order of preference. Danor Gerald: That is especially for the older generation, when it comes to relationships, and families, and dating, they stick with that traditional- Edmund Fong: Skin color does play ... It didn't play a role for me, but I think, for some Asian-American communities, especially South-Asian communities, yes. Skin color does matter for your parents' approval of your marriage prospects. Lonzo Liggins: It's a distinction of ... It's a form of colorism, but via the countries. Almost like with black people, it's a form of colorism when Africans don't like Jamaicans, and Jamaicans don't like Americans, and Americans don't like this. It's this strange circle of colorism that plays out in different forms. Danor Gerald: I always wonder about British black people. Edmund Fong: That's really interesting. Yeah. Lonzo Liggins: [inaudible 00:33:54] that. Yeah. Danor Gerald: Because they're doing .. They're playing African Americans, right? But I just really ... I even catch myself, whether you're black from Canada or England, or whatever, the UK, I'm like, "They ain't black," but they are, right? The diaspora is ... We're all black, because we're all from Africa and we all have a shared cultural experience. I really just want to thank you guys for sharing your cultural experiences, because one of the things that- Lonzo Liggins: Yeah. It's been great, guys. Danor Gerald: Yeah. One of the things I'm taking away from this, that it doesn't matter where you're from or what ethnicity you are, everybody deals with their version of these same issues. It's not just in America. That's really eyeopening for me. Darienne Debrule: Can I say one more thing? Lonzo Liggins: Absolutely. Darienne Debrule: I would just like to say that I think that, as each minority group, we have to combat colorism and these things in our own minority groups before we can really take on the challenge of equality within other races as well. It's like, how can we fight so hard for equality versus white people when we don't even have equality within our own race? Lonzo Liggins: Exactly. Danor Gerald: I love that. Lonzo Liggins: There you go. Danor Gerald: Practice what you preach, right? Darienne Debrule: Exactly. Lonzo Liggins: We didn't get a chance to hear the history of colorism, but for those of you who do want to check it out, you can actually go online to her website. I think it's your ... How can we read the colorism paper? Darienne Debrule: I published it on Medium, so I can send you the link. Yeah. I'll send you guys the link. Danor Gerald: Great. Awesome. Darienne Debrule: Then you could share it. Lonzo Liggins: It's on Medium. Danor Gerald: Thank you. We'll share- Lonzo Liggins: It's a really great paper. It's insightful, and it gives you a historical background. Danor Gerald: And you have a book. Tell us what your book is. Edmund Fong: I wrote a book a few years ago that's looking at American exceptionalism and race, and how those two are kind of polar opposites. I'm working right now on a book looking at how we use race to tell political time in this country, whether the country's moving forward, or going backwards, or ... Danor Gerald: Fantastic. We'll share those- Lonzo Liggins: What's the book called? Edmund Fong: Race Against Time. Danor Gerald: That's ... Lonzo Liggins: We all ... Danor Gerald: That's good. Lonzo Liggins: Good. Will be a Friday right there. Danor Gerald: That is. We're going to ... Send us the information about that. We want to post these links on the PBS website. Thank you guys for coming, again, and sharing your stories and your experiences with us. This has been a fantastic experience, discussing this with you guys. Lonzo Liggins: Love it. Darienne Debrule: Thanks for having us. Edmund Fong: Thank you for having us. Lonzo Liggins: Thanks, guys. All right. That's going to do it for this episode of Roots, Race, and Culture. Danor Gerald: Check out our website for even more content, including interviews with some pretty dope BIPOC business owners. You can find all that and a bag of chips at pbsutah.org/roots. Lonzo Liggins: You'd be doing us a solid if you told all your friends about our show, but, until next time, y'all, we are out.