Black Conservatives

Speaker 1: Roots, Race and Culture is made possible in part by the contributions to PBS Utah from listeners like you. Thank you. Danor Gerald: Hey everybody, you're listening to Roots, Race and Culture, a new podcast from PBS Utah. Lonzo Liggins: If you like what you hear, we hope you'll subscribe, leave us a review and share with your friends. Danor Gerald: All right, now let's get this thing started. Hello everyone. And welcome to Roots, Race and Culture. Our new show on PBS Utah, where we bring you into candid conversations about shared cultural experiences. I'm Danor Gerald. Lonzo Liggins: Hey, and I'm Lonzo Liggins. According to the latest data from the Pew Research Center, roughly 80% of black voters in America are registered Democrats. Many black Americans tend to shy away from Republicans. However, over the last six years, black conservatism has garnered a lot of attention. In a recent article for Newsweek, it said the Republican national committee expects a record number of black nominees for the house, but there are some liberals who say black conservatives are being used by white conservatives to weaken the democratic party and dismantle the strength of the black vote. While there are some conservatives who say liberalism is destroying the black community and conservatism is the answer to black America's adversities. Well, joining us to unpack this topic is James Evans and Carrie Bartholomew. Carrie Bartholomew: Thank you for having me. Lonzo Liggins: Well, Carrie, tell us a little bit about yourself. Carrie Bartholomew: Sure. I moved here recently from Seattle, Washington. I thought that I would be seeking refuge in a red state. I've been a conservative for a very, very long time, and it's been interesting to see that things in this state are not the way that I thought they would be. And so I find myself standing up to the plate and speaking out on behalf of Blexit and Utah Parents United and other parent groups. Lonzo Liggins: Awesome. Danor Gerald: Okay, great. Lonzo Liggins: And then the legend James Evans. James, tell us about yourself. James Evans: Yeah. I don't know about legend, but yeah. So I was a former chair of the Utah Republican party, served in the state senate. First black Republican to be elected to the Utah state senate and former military, former captain in the US air force. So I, after getting out of the military, I relocated to Utah, very red state. I hope it continues to be a red state. Carrie is pointing out some concerns, which we all have and hopefully we can make sure through these processes continue to educate voters why conservative choices tend to be better choices. Lonzo Liggins: And you went to Tuskegee? James Evans: Tuskegee graduate. Yes. Lonzo Liggins: That's awesome, man. I love that. I love that so much. James Evans: That's right. Danor Gerald: Nice. Lonzo Liggins: We got to jump right into this. I think the first question we have to ask is what is the difference between Republican and conservative? James Evans: Well, Republican is a political party. Lonzo Liggins: Okay. James Evans: So you can be a conservative. As a conservative, you could be a Republican or a Democrat or libertarian. Conservative is a philosophy, okay. Tends to focus on traditional values, modest in government spending and as a philosophy. Republican is a political party and our ideals tend to align, but we do have Republicans that are moderate and also liberal. On social issues, they may be more conservative on fiscal issues, just like you have some Democrats that are very conservative on social issues, but more liberal on fiscal issues. So conservatism is a philosophy. Lonzo Liggins: I hear this term traditional values. What does that mean? Carrie Bartholomew: Sure. Yeah. I break it up a little simpler than that. I think that there are Republicans and Democrats that pretty much share a line in their values. And I would go as far as to say, it's a difference between populist and being for the people, which I think the new conservative movement is much more for the people. We're much more focused on just your everyday person, what is the person at the grocery store going through? What is the person at Walmart? What is the parent, what is the student going through? And forever, that's been... Democrats have said that is their line and it's really, I think there's a shift. Danor Gerald: Yeah. I think that's important because to me, the value in the political process is all about for the people by the people, the founding fathers set things up so that people could have a voice, that's like what America's all about. So I really think that's a good thing to point out. James Evans: But we have to make sure we understand the traditional values from the founders of this country, is that the individual American is the sovereign, not the government. And what has happened with the Democrat party in particular is that they believe in a larger government, which basically takes sovereignty away from the individual American and transfer that power to the government. And so when you have a larger government, you're going to have less freedom and fewer rights. And so conservatives want to focus on making sure the individual American is the sovereign and has the authority and that is essentially what the founders of this country, that was their sole focus because they left Europe and they saw how corruption happens at the government level. And we are starting to see that now because our government has gotten so massive, that's where everyone is just upset. And I can just point it out, big government, little people. Big people, little government, it's that simple. Lonzo Liggins: And I want to get into that. I really want to get into that, the larger government question there, but before we do, I want to ask you a question and I want to start with you on this one, James, why is it that black people are Democrats in this country? Why is it the vast majority? Like I said, roughly 80% of black people are Democrats. James Evans: Because I believe the Democrat party back to Roosevelt focused on identity politics. So they put all of their constituencies in boxes. If you're a woman, if you're black, if you're Hispanic, then they focus on what they think your needs are and Republicans don't like to put people in identity box. It's just like, "What do you believe?" I've always been asked as a Republican by other Republicans, "Tell me what you believe." They want to know, are your liberal? Are your moderate? Are you conservative? Based on your values and your political philosophy, they could care less about your skin color or your gender and that's the fundamental difference. So when you have a party like the Democrat party, and this is important to note, you can go back to FDR. Did you know that black voters and blacks that have to be very pragmatic, they were in a party where the clan was the dominant force and the Democrat party and blacks joined the democratic party during that time. So politics make be strange bedfellows, doesn't it? So the Democrats have always been very good at appealing to what they think the needs are of different constituencies, whether they deliver on it or not is another issue. And Republicans have just focused on, these are our core values. This is our political philosophy. We want a limited government, we want economic freedom, we want personal freedom, individual liberty, all of those sorts of things. Danor Gerald: So it sounds to me and just consider me a layman, because I don't really follow a lot of politics personally. It sounds to me, what he's saying is that the Democrats were able to target different groups demographically and use that as their ability to pull people into their party versus the Republican philosophy. They weren't necessarily saying, "Okay, how do we break out these cross sections and give them what they need, so that they'll vote for us? Is that- Carrie Bartholomew: Yes, but I think that a lot of that has to do with preconceived notions of what it is that African Americans or other identity politic groups need. So for me, for an example, I became a conservative when I was 18 and I was in foster care and I asked my favorite teacher, I said, "What political party should I be?" And she goes, "Well, that's each easy." She's a white woman and she said, "You're black and you're poor. You're a Democrat." And just to automatically assume that being black and poor meant that I always wanted to be that or that I always would be that was such that low expectations and I feel like that is what has happened over and over and over again. When I listen... It was awful. I mean- Lonzo Liggins: That's horrible thing to say, there's so many things not right about that. Carrie Bartholomew: I was only 18 and I was just like, "Oh, okay." And then I walked out of the room and I was like, "I don't want to be poor forever. So I guess I'm not a Democrat." And that's the way that I looked at things, but when you have these preconceived notions, when you go back to traditional values to assume that our preconceived notions are the same as what their ideas are, are not correct. African Americans still, probably more so and I don't know the statistics on this, but probably more so than other racial groups, we're still people of faith. We're still people who lean a lot towards our Christian or Muslim background. And some of the things that they want to bring in, that the Democrats want to bring in that they're saying, "A men and a woman." It doesn't set well. It's like, "What are you saying? And to assume that you know, where we're coming from is going back to what James says, it's putting us in these boxes and you don't know us on an individual level. Lonzo Liggins: Well, I think like with a lot of black Americans, okay. I can't speak for all black Americans, but I think when you look at the Republican or conservative parties today, it fills from the outside looking in that there's hostility. When I see guys driving up and down the street with big American flags rolling up and down, and I see there's just a lot of hostility towards black communities. If I go onto Twitter, if I go onto Instagram and I start maybe arguing a point with someone who may or may not be a conservative, may or may not be white or black or whatever, instantaneously within a few exchanges, I'm getting these daggers thrown at me, "Why don't you people do this? Why don't you be there for your children? Why don't you do that?" It seems like there's a lot of hostility that's aimed at black people for voting Democrat, when there may be legitimate reasons for black people voting Democrat, maybe that's a logical solution in their community, maybe someone in their community said, "Hey, look, this is what we're going to do for your community, if you vote for us." They've given them those options. But when you go online, it seems like you're getting attacked for being a Democrat. And there that may feel like a safe place. I don't feel a lot of safety with conservatives right now. I do see some solutions that I like, but I don't know if I feel safety. What do you guys think about that? James Evans: Well, it's interesting that you bring that up because how do you know that those were even conservatives or Republicans that responded to you? Lonzo Liggins: Because they said they were. James Evans: Oh, okay. They said that they were. Okay. Well, I mean, we won't go into how the left can pretend to be conservatives just to attack, to keep you focused on being a Democrat, but not that you're a Democrat, but I'm saying the generic Democrat. Lonzo Liggins: No, no, no, no. James Evans: But let me make this point, the part of when you asked the question about blacks being Democrats, being a Democrat has become a part of the black culture. And that's rooted in the fact that the black church has been a place for social change and so Democrat politicians would always show up. And imagine a young child in church listening to the preacher, and then there's a Democrat politician, in their mind are going to start melding these things and that's why so many blacks feel like somehow it's a sin to not be a Democrat. So it's so cynical at its nature and the democratic party knew what they were doing when they adopted the strategy. So they have socialized blacks into being Democrat. So when you put solutions on the table, you can literally put a solution on the table and it's a conservative solution, but if you say it's by the Democrats, a black would say they support it, but when they learn it's from a Republican and they don't support it. So it's at a visceral level that we have to get to. So your sense about safety. Republicans tend to say what we need to hear and Democrats tend to say what we want to hear. We want to be validated, we want people to... It's like, "No, sometimes you have to have the hard truth." I value my parents for always telling me what I needed to hear more than what I wanted to hear and my friends that do that and that's what you have to do. And that's the fundamental difference, I think, between Republican and Democrat. Carrie Bartholomew: I wanted to ask [inaudible 00:13:26]. Danor Gerald: When you were talking about using the church for political things, the first thing that came to my mind was this idea of separation of church and state. Which I mean, that may not be the same type of thing, but that's what it made me think about. So that's interesting. Carrie Bartholomew: Well, I wanted to go back the flag, I don't feel unsafe by the flag. So- Lonzo Liggins: I don't feel unsafe by it, it just feels very hostile. Carrie Bartholomew: Again, no. I'm sorry. When people say right, I always feel like you want me to agree, but I can't agree with that because I work for a charter and we say our pledge of allegiance every single day, and it's injustice for all and I take that exactly as it's meant to be. I take that as every single person, every single identity that you fit in, including the African Americans. So I find it extremely disheartening that so many people would feel like America is not for them. And where were we taught that? Because I think that's ultimately what comes down to why we tend to be Democrats. We were taught to be Democrats, we were told whether or not that idea was something that had good intentions or whether or not, because sometimes I feel like it was from the plantation to, "Oh, you are a victim and we need to take care of you." Lonzo Liggins: I want to stop. I want to- Carrie Bartholomew: Sorry. Lonzo Liggins: I want to get on that victim thing. But I want to go to the solutions. You mentioned solutions, James. You had written in an article that you think a lot of the solutions are in economics in the black community. What do you two see as solutions to some of the problems in African American communities around the country? James Evans: We can just follow. I mean, we have some great examples that we can follow. First, we can go back to our history and when slavery ended in 1865, from 1865 to 1910, blacks accumulated 10 million acres of land in the United States. Lonzo Liggins: And how many acres had whites accumulated? James Evans: Well, no, I'm only talking about what blacks accumulated because the population would've been a lot smaller. Okay. But I'm going to compare that to today. So from 1865 to 1910, blacks accumulated, actually I think it was 19.8 million acres and today blacks owned less than 10 million acres. So you have to ask yourself, how were blacks able to accumulate that amount of land during that time where there were two things that happened. Number one, government was much smaller, so you had individuals just doing commerce. The only color that tends to matter and the private sector is green. You have something to sell, I have something I want to buy and vice versa. So you have to say, "Well then maybe society wasn't what we thought it was after slavery." But more importantly, it was blacks that knew that they had to go out and do it. There was no other option. And it's that mindset that we have to get back to, our ancestors has showed us this over and over and over again, even though yes, as government got larger and opposition became more organized by people misusing government, because every, I would say disadvantage that you have seen in the black community, through the black Wall Street riots, Jim Crow and all of that, it has been because of a misuse of government power. It has never been individual Americans, white Americans, they can never do it by themselves. They've always had to use government. So we have to understand that the misuse of government power is our greatest threat. And what Democrats want us to focus on is that it's individual white Americans and it's not. It's where Democrats focus, they want more government and when you have more government, you're going to have more problems because you're going to have the misuse of government power. So what blacks have to recognize is that we have to economically cooperate, but step number one is that we have to recognize, we must do it, no one else is going to do it for us. Danor Gerald: Right. Right. Lonzo Liggins: Okay. Danor Gerald: That's interesting. Lonzo Liggins: Go ahead, Carrie. Carrie Bartholomew: Yeah. I think that we need to champion education again. After BLM and they made so much money, I was like, "Okay, where's those charter schools, where are these lifting of our black children?" Because we've taught our black children that to succeed is whiteness, this is a problem. I feel like the solution is teaching them that, "Hey, there's amazing books out there. They don't all have to be about some kind of studies. They don't all have to be some kind of ethnic studies. They can be an amazing book. They can be classical literature." These things are cool and we need to turn it back and turn our kids into that achieving is awesome. We need to go to our prisons and we need to have options for these people when they get out of prison that you don't have to go to do fast food or you don't have to go back and repeat a crime again. "Instead, here's other options for you." I wondered, "Well, where are our junior tech colleges?" Why don't we have these things? Because these would be solutions. Instead, the flip side of that is let's lower the bar, so that black and brown kids can compete. That's the Democrat side. The conservative side is, "No, we want them all to have a seat at the great table. We want them all to have the best, most powerful education. We want them all to have the best chance at succeeding in life." Lonzo Liggins: I just want to make sure I'm getting this right. So you think that the answer to the issues in the community would be education and also- James Evans: Economic cooperation. Lonzo Liggins: But how do you speak to the masses of the black population and say, "This is how it needs to be done." And it seems to me kind of odd that we would be the only community that wouldn't require any government, because I look and I see people, in particular white communities, using government all the time. I see them using government right now for critical race theory, to be able to get those laws passed, to have that outlawed. So I feel like what's happened a lot of times is that we're telling the black community, "Do it on your own." Even though we don't do it on our own. James Evans: But now that's not what I'm saying. Lonzo Liggins: But you have to have a government to be able to take care of, because there's obviously the law enforcement issue that's happening, because there's crime, that's happening. Not every black person's out there committing crime, a small percentage of black people committing crime. So you have to tackle that issue in black communities first and then you got to tackle how we're going to get jobs and how we're going to revitalize the communities as well. We've been able to do that in this country. I mean, look at what happened with the new deal. I know that's a controversial topic, but that was big government and it worked. That was a larger government solution that happened to help out America after- James Evans: It helped out white America, blacks were not a part of it. Lonzo Liggins: It helped out America, it was a government solution though. James Evans: No, it was a government solution for white America. And this is the point that I keep saying is that the government will never make us economically successful. Lonzo Liggins: Oh no. I'm not saying that at all. James Evans: Their job is to make sure that we are treated within the bounds of the law. If we are transgress against, then the law will come and protect us. Danor Gerald: An ideal government. James Evans: That's what the government's supposed to be and so we can't look to government for our economic liberation. That's not going to happen if they can just make sure society, we are treated fairly in society on our own devices we can lift ourselves up because we have done that over and over and over again. There are 42 million blacks in America, our collective GDP, if you want to use that term is $1.5 trillion. So we would be larger than Canada. So the resources are there. We just have to decouple ourself from this victim mentality that the Democrat party has basically thrust upon us and say that somehow we have to look to others for our salvation. And it's like, we're happy to partner and have allies, great. But it has to be on an agenda that will lift us up. And not someone else's agenda of saying, "We'll come help you, but we need you to do the following." It's like, no, what we need to do is to make sure that each child can have two parents, that we can have safe neighborhoods, that we have the opportunity to engage in commerce, create our own businesses. There are three things that free slaves did, right out the bat, they bought land, they built churches and they built schools for their kids. Okay. Those three things right there. Lonzo Liggins: We'll get back to this conversation on Roots, Race and Culture in just a moment. Speaker 2: PBS Utah is also home to other dynamic podcasts, more than half covers some of the most challenging issues facing women in Utah and how it takes all of us to make change happen. Here's a clip from the episode, a separate space. Speaker 3: I don't think a lot of people realize that it's just not common for people of color, especially women of color, to see themselves in the stories that were reading. Speaker 2: Subscribe to More Than Half wherever you get your podcast. Danor Gerald: And now back to Roots, Race and Culture from PBS Utah. Lonzo Liggins: So I want to get into- Danor Gerald: Yeah, we're back. Lonzo Liggins: The last two statements. Let's go again. Danor Gerald: Well, let's talk about this though, but before we go into that, I want to talk about, there's a voter thing happening in Congress right now. There's a bill on voting rights- Carrie Bartholomew: Voter integrity. Danor Gerald: Voter integrity. Where do you guys stand on that? James Evans: Well, I mean, you're talking about the John Lewis voting rights bill. Danor Gerald: Yes. James Evans: So we already have voting rights and like they talked about the Georgia law was so restrictive. Well, Georgia has more early voting days in their law than Delaware has and that's where Joe Biden is from. But for some strange reason, they poll tested the phrase Jim Crow, look I've been involved in politics a long time, this is just a cynical move to try to gen up the black vote by saying you're being denied something. It's not that you just have to have an ID, if you don't have an ID, you can use a utility bill. They have all sorts of ways you can identify yourself. And the bottom line is that this is just another manufactured assault on the black community to show that Republicans don't like you and Democrats, but we like you type thing. And that's what we have to not allow ourselves to be used in that way, because it does not. First of all, it's not going to elevate our standard of living, we are being used once again by political organization for a benefit to their organization, which is to push a progressive agenda, which I don't think is necessarily in our best interest. Lonzo Liggins: So here's the thing like with when it comes to liberals and here's some things I dislike about them. I don't like the symbolic gestures that are used. I don't like the fact that there's actually not a lot of actual solutions that are on the table that you can bite into. One of the problems I had during 2020 was when Ice Cube was offered a deal by Trump, it was the platinum plan. You guys remember that? And Biden said, "Well, you know what? Let's wait till after the election. And then I'll show you what my plan is." And then he didn't respond to it. Now, I was happy when Trump offered that, I didn't like Trump, I still don't. But I was like, "At least someone's providing a solution because those solutions are economic." It was almost a form of reparations. People don't want to hear that word, but it was almost a form of reparations. And there's certain things that liberals will do that I notice will try and curry the black vote. I like Katanji Brown, I think she's great, but I feel like that's a symbolic gesture on behalf of Joe Biden. It's not actual physical stuff that's going to improve the black community. And I'm all about solutions, when I hear about thousands of young black men dying in this country, and it's become background noise in this country, it's become background music. We don't even pay attention to it anymore. We're caught up with these small issues, such as, no offense, but critical race theory, where that's a big issue with people, but young black men dying and killing each other every day isn't. And I have to ask myself when I think of what the conservatives are offering for those solutions, I don't see a lot in way of them solving that problem, other than to say to black people, "Vote republican and we'll solve the issue." But I don't see physical, tangible solutions or fix your own community or go out and you'd be the boss of your own community and fix that. That doesn't work. Because you got to go out there with the bullhorn and tell everybody how to change themselves and that's not going to happen. Carrie Bartholomew: No, we have to start again. We have to start with our kids when they're in school, we have to stop making the gang life glorified. And again, if I sound offensive. Lonzo Liggins: I agree. Carrie Bartholomew: I'm from the gang life. That's where I come, from the foster system. My stepfather was a Crip. Okay. So I understand the problem. And when you have a two year old child who is taught to turn their hand this way and go bang, bang, shoot the pigs and everybody in the family thinks that's adorable, then these kids are growing up and being taught, this is cool, this is manly. That's a huge part of the masculine thing. That's not the solution. The solution is to take these kids and say, "You are so capable. You can do anything with your life." And to not put limits on them, not to put limits and have all of these. I think that you should have these stories of what you've come from, but you should also have the stories... Probably the most frustrating and lack of solution I've seen is our black history month is Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks and that's all we hear. We do not hear about how, as James was saying earlier, the successes that African Americans have achieved. We don't hear these stories. When I was a kid, I thought that people were either, if you were a wealthy African American, you were an athlete or an actor, period, or a singer. That's all I knew about. I didn't know that anybody was doctors and lawyers. Lonzo Liggins: I hear you. Carrie Bartholomew: And why? Our solution? Go mentor. Danor Gerald: Yeah. You did say something earlier. Carrie Bartholomew: Sorry. Danor Gerald: No, you're fine. You said something earlier. And I was curious about it. You said that we are taught to feel a certain way about government and part of it for me, was I was thinking, "Yeah, but when you go to the policing issue and that sort of thing, that's a visceral." A good word that you use earlier. "That's a visceral sort of reaction that individuals and the collective community has." And I feel like nobody has to teach you to be afraid if you see people who look like you being shot, you're going to be afraid on your own. So anyway, that's kind of out of context, but it was just something you said earlier. And I do think that teaching is valuable, education is the key. I mean, there's no doubt about that for anyone's success, no matter what color your skin is. But I do think that people have that innate human reaction to things and that's where we have to come up with solutions that provide the education. Lonzo Liggins: It takes a village. I think it takes more than just telling black people what to- James Evans: About the village, I got you. Lonzo Liggins: But what I'm saying by that is that it takes more than just... Look, I used to work with juveniles from Philadelphia and from Washington DC, work with young gang members, I worked with them for a long time and we would get in there and we would say, "Okay, change your behavior." We'd fix them up. We'd set them up and then the minute they'd go back into the community, it was lights out within six months. And the problem with it is that yes, you can change an individual person, but if more than 5 or 6 people or 10 people or groups of people are doing something in a particular community, it becomes a societal issue. We know that in terms of when you look at the... Who are... The people in West Virginia, the whites in West Virginia, up in the Appalachia's. James Evans: The Appalachian mountains. Lonzo Liggins: There's a cycle of poverty that's created. And cycle of poverty's are difficult to break out of, we know that, it's not easy to walk into a community and say, "Okay, everyone just get together. And you become a doctor and you become a lawyer." I'd love to educate people, but it requires more elements than that. And the problem is too complex for there to be one solution. And that's why, when I hear a lot of within the conservative rhetoric, I hear them saying, you know what, "Well, why don't you just all do it by yourselves and you can fix it. Well, remove the government and just rely on you guys to start building businesses." With what resources? James Evans: With what resources, let me ask you this. Okay. I understand your point. So in every place where we have these horrible conditions, Chicago, Detroit- Lonzo Liggins: They're Democrats. James Evans: Pick, them all. They're all Democrat control. I mean, the tax base is Democrat controlled, the policy making all of that's Democrat controlled. So why haven't their solutions worked? Lonzo Liggins: Well, here's the thing. It's not about the liberal solutions working. It's about saying that if there's a conservative solution to the problem, if you were to tell black people in those communities, "Okay, well, why don't you just vote conservative?" Do you think that they're problems would just melt away all of a sudden? Carrie Bartholomew: No, I think it's about incentivizing. When Trump was in office, Ben Carson did some amazing work with the foster community. So he took people who were aging out of care and he provided this program and yes, there were other people involved, but he was the head of [inaudible 00:31:49] at the time. So he provided this program in which foster kids were able to get therapy, health insurance, medical insurance, schooling, and life skills training and housing, but they were required to pay back, I think it was like 12%, someone can check me on that, but there was a percentage that they were required to. So I think what I've realized is that when we hand out, so first off- Lonzo Liggins: No, I don't agree in handout. I don't agree- Carrie Bartholomew: Yeah. Yeah, because the whole thing is a government that is big enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take away everything you need. Okay. So I'm super anti that. But I do think that if you give people the incentive to improve their lives and you show them that it's possible, because it is not possible to get off food stamps, white or black or Mexican or Latin, or whatever you want to be. So it's not possible to get off food stamps if to get off food stamps it means you're going to starve. So you say, while you are working in this situation, like in the foster system, they have these two years of trainings, while you're working in that, you get all of these services, but then you have to pay a little bit back. That's that incent, that's the building of personal sense of responsibility and I feel like that is how we find the solutions. We say, "We're going to help you and know we're literally going to stay right here with you and give you what you need to the point that you can get where you don't need us anymore and you can take pride in the fact that you don't need that anymore." Lonzo Liggins: Give a man a fish versus- Carrie Bartholomew: Exactly that is fully why I'm conservative. Lonzo Liggins: If we're going to break down the black community and say, "Look, why don't we rebuild our cultural identities, which is what you alluded to with the Nigerian thing." And by the way, a lot of those Nigerians that come in here come from wealthy families, that can be argued, because you're not seeing a bunch of poor... What poor Nigerian is going to be able to get to the United States to go to school? James Evans: But if there was this racism, they would be blocked from being able to achieve. So that's a point to that. Lonzo Liggins: But I think the attack is not specifically on race in this country. I think it's on black culture. I think a lot of people dislike black culture, certain types of black culture, like you and I, the four of us- James Evans: I don't want a gang lifestyle or all of this gangster rap, and all of that, none of that's productive when they're calling black women, all of these- Lonzo Liggins: That's not black culture.To me, that's gang culture. James Evans: That's what you see on TV. Lonzo Liggins: That's not black culture to me. I don't equate that to black culture. James Evans: But that's what they put on TV, like for instance, I'm from South Carolina, two historical black colleges in my hometown, everyone I knew growing up was college educated. I just assumed that, well, I was taught that education ended after you got your bachelor's degree, never knew that college was an option. I just thought it was mandatory. I had relatives from up north, same family, they have a different culture and they were foreign to me when they would come visit. They had a whole different perspective on life. So yes, we are tribal by nature, meaning that it could be based on skin color or shared experiences and I know that from being in the military, because when we're overseas or whatever, all we cared about was do you know how to do your job? Because I need you to watch my six. I didn't care what you looked like, where you came from. I care that you could... So we're always working in tribes, based on shared interests. And right now, when I, when I was talking about with the Democrats, they perfected the art of convincing us our shared interests is that they will protect us from racism. There's a boogeyman out there and I'm still trying to figure out exactly how they're able to identify it all the time. But they used the word an awful lot, for everything. Because when I turned 18, I registered to vote as a Republican. And I told my folks, I said, "Yeah, I registered. And I'm voting." And I tell them, "I'm voting for Reagan and I'm registered to vote." And my parents are like, "Wait a minute, why'd you register as a Republican?" I said, "Well, Reagan is saying everything that you've taught us." Me and my brothers, everything we grew up, Reagan was talking about, my parents would always say, so I just assumed my parents were a Republican too, because they were saying the same thing that... But they were like, "No we're Democrat." And the only reason that I think my parents were Democrat is because they believed that the Democrats would protect them from racism. You see? And is that- Danor Gerald: That brings me to an interesting point. Utah is a very unique state. We are a very small portion of this population. Tell us in some closing thoughts, what is it like being black and conservative, living in Utah? What is it that makes that experience unique? You guys have lived in other parts of the country, give us some closing thoughts on that experience. Carrie Bartholomew: Well, you guys have talked a lot about tribal and probably because of my unique experience of growing up in the foster system and living in so many homes with so many different people. I don't have a tribal sense. But everywhere I go. So I get the black liberals and also the white Karen liberals, a lot of them just labeling me on social media. And I'm like, "You don't know me. I spoke at one event one time. And now you think that you know me and you're putting all of these things on me." Lonzo Liggins: All these labels. Carrie Bartholomew: That make no sense whatsoever. But everywhere I go, I mean, the reality is that race, it's a part of who we are. So even if we don't have, none of us share the same experiences, none of us have the same growing up lifestyles. But wherever we go, that's the first thing people see, it is the first thing people see, my issue is and this is what I find with conservatives, for the most part. It's an oh moment and then it's moving on and it really is, it's just a quick little, oh moment and then, so what else do you have to offer? At least it used to be, even months ago. Now it's moving, now that kind of mistrust is moving across. And so now I'm at this place where my choice is these people are over here saying, "Oh, but with your story, you would be such a strong voice for our cause and these people over here." It's like, so I have to be a token and I don't want to be a token, I just want to be me. I just want to be appreciated for the person that I am and for all of the many things that I offer, not just to be, that black girl, that black woman who speaks eloquently. That's that's what it's like. So everywhere you go, you do have that on you. But I will say with conservatives, it's a blip. And with liberals, it seems to be more like an essential part of who you are and like the most important part of who you are. Danor Gerald: That goes against your nature and your feelings about your self identity. Carrie Bartholomew: Yeah. It really does. Danor Gerald: I understand that. Carrie Bartholomew: It's painful. I moved here going, "I'm going to get some rest." Because when my son was born, we lived here and I thought, "I'm going to get some rest. This isn't here." And now it's here and like to have Congress say, "You don't get to speak because you don't represent the popular narrative." Talk about something extremely racist, we've got some problems. Danor Gerald: I hear you. Lonzo Liggins: James. Yeah. Give it to us brother. Danor Gerald: My experiences with discrimination in Utah have been by white liberals. I've been called the N word and every other name in the book and they felt justified in doing that because I'm a black Republican who is also conservative. It's like, "How dare you?" And my response has always been well, "How dare you be a white liberal and also be racist. So you reconcile that." You understand? So the point simply is this is that with conservatives, they always want to know, tell me what you believe, tell me what your point of view is on this. They actually want to get to know me as an individual as opposed to just, "Okay, this is your skin color. So now I've decided who you are." And that to me is the greatest injustice you can do to any individual. It's just to say, you're the skin color, you're this gender, whatever. So therefore you fit in this box. Anything outside of that, we don't want to hear from you because they're not willing to engage you as a complete human being. And my experience in Utah has been conservatives here in Utah, have always embraced and wanted to get to know me as a person and where I stood on issues. And trust me, I've had many battles on different issues, but it was about the issue. And that's what's so fulfilling, as opposed to hearing from liberals that say, "You're black, you have to believe this. How dare you, you can never overcome that." And if you really think about it, the last time we had to be something because we were black was when? Slavery. You see, Lonzo Liggins: I've never met these liberals that you're talking about. I guess you guys hang with some different liberals. Danor Gerald: Everybody has a different experience. Lonzo Liggins: It's unique, but I appreciate- Carrie Bartholomew: You guys aren't conservatives, you aren't on the Republican part of things. Lonzo Liggins: I'm saying I've never heard these liberals you speak of- Danor Gerald: That's part of the reason I don't do that and maybe it's because I choose to see people as individuals and I choose to get to know everybody for who they are, regardless of what's their political leaning or anything is because I want to learn from people and I value people's experience and I feel like that collective wisdom of learning from everybody has value. So I don't probably run into those conflicts as much because I don't- James Evans: It's more in politics and I want to clarify what I call authentic liberals, the ones that just they have their beliefs, but they are accepting of everyone. Those I get along with, but when you're talking about the activists, progressive folks like you're talking about with the BLM and all of those, yeah they have just decided you're this skin color. You have to be this way, if you're not, you're the enemy. Lonzo Liggins: I want to have you guys get some of your final thoughts before we wrap up. Let's start with you Carrie. Carrie Bartholomew: Sure. Lonzo Liggins: It's about 30 seconds. Carrie Bartholomew: Absolutely. I think that the most important thing that people need to realize if we're going to survive. And if we do consider ourselves all like true Americans who love this country is that we need to see ourselves as individuals. I think that we need to be more about the individual and less about the collective because the collective stops us being able to think for ourselves and thinking for ourselves is how we rise. Lonzo Liggins: James. James Evans: Yeah, absolutely agree with that. And with respect to race, I think our discussion needs to be more nuanced now, it's not so much about a skin color as it is a culture. And perfect example is Nigerians are black, I'm black, but when you look at the earning power of Nigerians, they rank at the top per capita income. So it cannot be that racism is stopping them, it has to be something rooted in their culture about their desire to succeed. I truly understand why we are where we are in America as black Americans given our history. So that's why I think the conservative solution is what Carrie pointed out when we think critically individually and not get in the way of ourselves by first believing that, I can do this or I'm going to try. So my grandma used to say nothing, "Beats a failure, better try. So all you have to do is try it." Lonzo Liggins: Great. Right guys, we got to wrap this up. Danor Gerald: Thank you guys for sharing your experiences. Lonzo Liggins: Love these conversations. [inaudible 00:44:09]. James Evans: In my living room with my dad. Danor Gerald: All right, guys. Thank you so much. Lonzo Liggins: All right, that's going to do it for this episode of Roots, Race and Culture. Danor Gerald: Check out our website for even more content, including interviews with some pretty dope BIPOC business owners. You can find all that and a bag of chips at pbsutah.org/roots. Lonzo Liggins: And you'd be doing us a solid if you told all your friends about our show, but until next time y'all, we are out.