Buffalo Soldiers

Speaker 1: Roots, Race, and Culture is made possible in part by the contributions to PBS Utah, from listeners like you. Thank you. (singing) Danor Gerald: Hey everybody, you're listening to Roots, Race and Culture, a new podcast from PBS, Utah. Lonzo Liggins: If you like what you hear, we hope you'll subscribe. Leave us a review and share with your friends. Danor Gerald: All right, now let's get this thing started. Lonzo Liggins: Welcome everybody to roots, race and culture. A new show on PBS, Utah, where we bring you into candid conversations about shared cultural experiences. I'm Lonzo Liggins. Danor Gerald: Hi, I'm Danor Gerald. Today, we are going to uncover a piece of Utah history that's so famous people all over the world have been singing a song about it for decades. And I'll show you. Lonzo Liggins: Here we go. This should be interesting. It's about to tear it up. Danor Gerald: All right. I'm no professional. Give me a chance to warm up here. You guys talk amongst yourselves, right? Lonzo Liggins: Well, let's introduce our guests here. Let's start with you. Fiona. Fiona Robinson-Hill: I'm Fiona Robinson-hill. I'm a local and I'm a researcher historian here. Lonzo Liggins: Awesome. Good. How about you, Robert? Robert Burch: My name is Robert Burch. I'm executive director of [Simi 00:01:08] African American Heritage and Culture Foundation. And we work to tell the story of black folks in Utah. Lonzo Liggins: Awesome. Well, that sounds good. Now let's hear the star of the show. All right, here we go. (Singing). Robert Burch: Not bad. Not bad. Lonzo Liggins: I'll give it a three. Danor Gerald: All right. Three out of four. That's not bad at all. Lonzo Liggins: Three out of four. That's the world famous musician that's saying that song. Danor Gerald: Yes, not me, but Bob Marley. Lonzo Liggins: I was going to say you [crosstalk 00:01:41]. Danor Gerald: So Buffalo Soldier, if you don't recognize it, that is a very famous song by Bob Marley in which he's singing about our subject today, the buffalo soldiers. And he's in fact singing, not just about the soldiers in general, but he's actually in that song at one point, singing about Utah's buffalo soldiers. So let's jump into this. I can't wait to hear about this history and to share it with our audience. Lonzo Liggins: Yeah, let's hear about some of the historical stuff. Robert Burch: Well, those are actually the soldiers that are prepared to go to San Juan Hill and that's in the Spanish America war. Danor Gerald: These are with the rough writers, right? Lonzo Liggins: So these are the black soldiers that Congress helped establish. Robert Burch: Right. Lonzo Liggins: What, what time period? Robert Burch: In 1866, when the soldiers were initially created separate from white soldiers in the United States. Lonzo Liggins: Okay. Robert Burch: And so those are them preparing to go to San Juan. And we also have a flag from that battle at San Juan up at Fort Douglas. Danor Gerald: That's right. Right around the corner, right? Now, and Fiona, you've been digging deep into this history here. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Yes. Danor Gerald: Tell us a little bit more about the soldiers in general. Fiona Robinson-Hill: So the buffalo soldiers, they were the all African American regiment in the United States army. And they came to Utah the first in 18, whoa. Danor Gerald: Late 18 hundreds, 1860, 70. Fiona Robinson-Hill: 1886. Danor Gerald: Okay. Fiona Robinson-Hill: In the UN to basin and then they came to Salt Lake City, 10 years later, 1896. Danor Gerald: Okay. So you've got two different groups here. You've got those who are at Fort Duchenne, which is from what I understand a cavalry, the ninth cavalry. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Yes. The ninth Calvary. And they established Fort Duchenne. Danor Gerald: They established the Fort? Okay. Fiona Robinson-Hill: They did. Those were their orders to established the Fort. Danor Gerald: And then why way out there in the middle of nowhere? Fiona Robinson-Hill: They had specific orders to kind of help oversee... Protect the mail route and then help oversee Native American affairs in that area because they established the Fort on the reservation that's out there. Lonzo Liggins: So why were they protecting the mail route? What was going on in the mail route? Danor Gerald: Well there's sometimes bandits would try to steal mail and stuff like that. Lonzo Liggins: Really? Danor Gerald: Yeah. Lonzo Liggins: Oh, so being a postman back in the day was [crosstalk 00:04:07]. Wasn't just driving a little truck and dipping mail. Danor Gerald: Oh, no. Yeah. They have a gun. Yeah. Lonzo Liggins: So that's what they were there for is just to help to protect that route, to make sure that no band had stole anything and- Danor Gerald: But also, like you said to, when you say to kind of oversee Indian affairs, because at this point in Utah's history, there's a lot of people coming from the east from [NVU 00:04:31]. We have a lot of settlers, a lot of them LDS. And they're mixing with all of these natives who are already here, right? So why did the U.S. send these soldiers here to just kind of keep the peace or what? Fiona Robinson-Hill: Yeah. To keep the peace. And it was, they were a federal presence in the area. So there was not really any law out there so to say. Like Salt Lake City was several... Like a two day journey. And then the closest one was Colorado. Danor Gerald: Okay. Fiona Robinson-Hill: So there was no jurisdiction really. Utah wasn't a state. It was just territory. Danor Gerald: It was still a territory at that time. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Right. Danor Gerald: Wow. So we're talking the roots of the state here. There were black soldiers here helping get things under control and settled and keeping the peace. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Right. Lonzo Liggins: Can I ask a quick question? To take it back and keep it really basic, how did they even get the name buffalo soldiers where like, where did that come from? Danor Gerald: Right. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Right. That's a really good question. There's a couple theories floating around. There's the main one that people associate with and it's the physical description of buffaloes and then associating it with African Americans being with like the association with buffaloes and- Danor Gerald: Well, and they, they were known for their fierceness and battle as well by the natives. And that is something that name was given to them by the native Americans right? Robert Burch: Yeah. Danor Gerald: From what I understand, these natives gave them that name because they were very fond of the buffalo. They referenced that animal. And so they gave them that kind of street cred. Robert Burch: You can see the soldiers really trying to take advantage of it too. I mean, I'm going to be a buffalo, let me put on a buffalo skin. Let me put on a buffalo hat and- Danor Gerald: They hadn't really even seen a lot of Africans I'm sure at that point in the natives here. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Right. And so, it was a very like sacred animal to the native Americans. And I kind of like to say, they adopted that with honor that name. It was a like, yeah, I'm going to call myself a buffalo soldier. And it did like when buffalo's were cornered, they fought with everything they had to the death. And that's why like during the Indian war's time period, the buffalo soldiers were out there fighting and that's what they did too during those time periods. Danor Gerald: So just how many soldiers are we talking about here in Utah, these black cavalry and infantrymen in Salt Lake? How many are we talking about? Fiona Robinson-Hill: By 1896, there were over 600 soldiers. Lonzo Liggins: Wow. Fiona Robinson-Hill: In Utah. Lonzo Liggins: That boosted the black population. Yeah. That changed the demographic dramatically. [crosstalk 00:07:30]. Danor Gerald: And of course they were here with their families and their kids and stuff too, right? Fiona Robinson-Hill: Yes. Danor Gerald: So that's even... There was even more black people. So now- Lonzo Liggins: That might be more black folks than there are today. We might have had a population increase. Danor Gerald: We got half of them here. Lonzo Liggins: That time period, wasn't that a bizarre thing to have, like these 600 black people running around. Because Utah at that point, didn't have a lot of black people running around, right? I mean, what was the black population prior to that? Do you know how many black people? Robert Burch: No. African Americans had started coming with the regular settlement in 1847. Danor Gerald: Okay. Robert Burch: So at least that I can think of right off the top of my head, probably about 20, 30 slaves and the rest of free people, business people, things of nature. Danor Gerald: This was the majority of black people in Utah. Were these soldiers basically [crosstalk 00:08:22]. Robert Burch: Around that time, it probably would've been, and then later with the coming of the railroad, would've encouraged that population dramatically. Danor Gerald: People coming to work on the railroad. Robert Burch: Right. Coming to work on the railroad. Fiona Robinson-Hill: And when they did the census, they would've been counted amongst the citizens. So these were actually like considered citizens. Danor Gerald: Of the state. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Of the state. And so it wasn't just like, oh, they're just visitors. They're just here for a short time period. When they did the directories, they were considered citizens. So it wasn't just, they're just visiting. They're just here for a short time period. Robert Burch: Right. Fiona Robinson-Hill: These are actually citizens of the state of Utah. Danor Gerald: How much did they impact the development of the state? Were they well known? I mean, what kind of- Robert Burch: Well, the things that the soldiers provided were a lot of infrastructure, things from roads. Of course, like Fiona said, the protection of the mill and you would think later on with the coming of telegrams and railroads and all of those type of infrastructure type of thing that you would needed, not just construction, but protection of afters it's being constructed. So they really helped provide some of the basic infrastructure for UN to basin and other places. Danor Gerald: And were they... Is there a lot of this history in the state of Utah? Where do they talk about this? You grew up in Utah. Is this something- Lonzo Liggins: I grew up in Utah too? Danor Gerald: You did. Lonzo Liggins: I didn't hear about the buffalo soldiers. Fiona Robinson-Hill: No. Lonzo Liggins: I didn't hear about them all. The only time I heard about them was through Bob Marley song. Danor Gerald: Yeah. Lonzo Liggins: Which you know... And I would love after you guys talk about this, to hear about some of the lyrics in the song and how they actually, relate to what happened in Utah. But yeah. Fiona Robinson-Hill: So I was never taught it in school. I never heard about it. Not until I was an adult and someone pointed out like at the Fort Douglas cemetery, that's where the buffalo soldiers are buried. It's like what? Danor Gerald: Oh, right around the corner. They're right here. Their graves. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Yeah. There's around the corner. But even here, so the UN to basin, they were part of a lot of the infrastructures, but here in Salt Lake, when the 24th infantry got here, the band was a major part of the social gatherings. They played baseball, they were part of parades. Lonzo Liggins: Really? Wow. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Really part of the social gatherings of the city. Danor Gerald: I got to tell you something, I'm a transplant to the state of Utah here connected in a lot of ways in an ecclesia nature. I had no real connection to Utah growing up, but you don't hear very much, and I've done a documentary about early black pioneers. You don't hear much about them. And there were very few, but to see that many black citizens walking through the streets, playing their musical instruments, participating, that's a really big deal. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Yes. Lonzo Liggins: Yes. Robert Burch: Well, that's a really an enclave in central Salt Lake City, near downtown where African Americans frequent. And that's a project that we're actually working on to show that. And that's one of the places that the soldiers spent a lot of time in downtown Salt Lake. Along, I think that this... It used to be called [whiskey 00:11:29] Street. I think it's Main Street now. Lonzo Liggins: Main Street right now. Danor Gerald: So this is another project that your foundation's working on. Robert Burch: Yeah. Lonzo Liggins: Well, I mean, talk about your foundation too, because you, your foundation's called the [SEMA Hadithi 00:11:41]. Robert Burch: Right? Lonzo Liggins: What does that mean? Robert Burch: That means, say the story or tell the story. We found out a lot of people do their genealogy research, but we have to share that. And that literally changes the narrative of what the American history, American story is when we also share our story. So it's not about changing the story, it's add to the chapters that are missing. And that's what we want to do in downtown Salt Lake and other parts of Utah, add those stories to the book. Lonzo Liggins: You know, I'm hearing all this for the first time growing up here, I've been in Utah for 30 some odd years. I moved here when I was eight years old, my father was in the military, and it begs the question, why isn't this stuff told? Why don't we hear about the buffalo soldiers in Utah history? I heard about everything else in Utah history and [crosstalk 00:12:24]. Danor Gerald: It's not even just Utah, right? It's kind of a revisionist history in the United States, generally speaking, right? I mean, there's a ton of people and things that took place that just kind of gets swept under the rug. They're buried. Lonzo Liggins: There's... And I'm glad you brought that up because there's this picture of Teddy Roosevelt and I can't remember what the battle is, and it's the battle of San Juan, right? [crosstalk 00:12:49] And that's mentioned. Yeah. Right. And that's mentioned. In that picture, he's at the center of the picture. Most of those pictures, when they show those pictures are centered on him. They crop out the black people that are to the right and to the left of them. And they just show him and the white soldiers. Danor Gerald: Right. The rough writers. And the thing about that, those soldiers who fought with him were the 24th infantry who were stationed here right around the corner from us, like a stones throwaway at Fort Douglas, right. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Yes. Danor Gerald: Fort Douglas. Now, so that's the 24th. Robert Burch: Yes. Danor Gerald: And in the song... This really didn't connect click for me until just a few days ago, in the song at the very end, he says. Lonzo Liggins: This is the Bob Marley song. Danor Gerald: Yes. In the Bob Marley song, Buffalo Soldiers. He says trotting through San Juan in the arms of America. And I used to think, okay, that's the arms of like, but it's no. In the arms, the guns. Here they are. This is an historical painting of the Utah soldiers, the 24th infantry. Robert Burch: Utah soldiers. Lonzo Liggins: Yeah. Danor Gerald: Fighting in this war with Teddy Roosevelt. Robert Burch: Right. Danor Gerald: And they were some of the... They were the first people at the top of the hill. Lonzo Liggins: Trotting through San Juan in the arms, meaning guns. Danor Gerald: In wearing with the guns of America. And that's what I was referencing earlier. Like literally this song is world famous. Robert Burch: Yes. Danor Gerald: And people are singing about Utah. Robert Burch: Utah soldiers. Danor Gerald: And they don't... Utah doesn't even teach this fact. Robert Burch: Right. And again, it's significant that banner that end up being placed at top of that hill, it's the banner that's still that Fort Douglas now. You can go over and see that banner now that those African American soldiers placed there. Danor Gerald: Wow. Robert Burch: When they took San Juan Hill. Danor Gerald: Wow. Fiona Robinson-Hill: So when the 24th got to Utah, all the regiments of the 24th were, were in Utah, were in Salt Lake City and they were, they came to Salt Lake and they were called to the battle front in San Juan. And then they came back to Salt Lake. Robert Burch: Yes. Fiona Robinson-Hill: So anytime you hear about the 24th in San Juan, it's the ones that were in Salt Lake and they left Salt Lake and then they came back to Salt Lake. So it's, anytime you hear about the 24th or the buffalo soldiers, even if it's the ninth calvary, those were the ones in Duchenne, and they left Duchenne, they left Salt Lake. Then they came back. So it's our buffalo soldiers that were down there. Danor Gerald: And you can see some artifacts from here because you're working with the museum at Fort Douglas and the curator there. What's his name? Fiona Robinson-Hill: Bo. Danor Gerald: Bo? Fiona Robinson-Hill: Burges. Danor Gerald: Burges. That's right. He's been really helpful in helping you find some of this information. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Yes. Danor Gerald: And they're doing a pretty good job over there of trying to preserve this history. Robert Burch: Yes. And again, that's an organization that we've partnered with because there's so much we want to do on buffalo soldiers from reproducing their uniforms to having enactments of some of the military leaders like Allen Allensworth, who was the chaplain there. He was the black chaplain there at Fort Douglas, as well as Brigadier Charles Young. He was one of the officers there at Fort Douglas as well. So we want to make sure that we work with Fort Douglas to kind of represent those soldiers and get people to understand it. The significant black soldiers who came through Utah are one who did outstanding jobs in the United States army and really achieved high rank. Danor Gerald: Well, and I understand you guys are working on a really cool project to help make this happen. A graphic novel. Robert Burch: Yeah. Yes. Danor Gerald: And this is where your research really is centered on, is finding all the information to fill this novel. So we have some images from that. Lonzo Liggins: That look amazing. Danor Gerald: Tell us about this. Lonzo Liggins: And I want to hear about Fort Damn Shame. Tell me about Fort Damn Shame. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Fort Damn Shame was a nickname because it was actually a failure the first six months. So they actually nicknamed it. Fort Duchenne was called Fort Damn Shame. Danor Gerald: Wow. So you're telling the story of those soldiers from Fort Duchenne and is the Fort Douglas, the 24th, are they in this novel as well? Fiona Robinson-Hill: This is the ninth Calvary at Fort Duchenne. Danor Gerald: Okay. Robert Burch: Right. Fiona Robinson-Hill: In the first six months. Robert Burch: And it really talks about... Want to talk about their challenges because it did start off as a failure. And because the soldiers decided that they wanted to make this happen, they made sure it happened. The leadership was not necessarily there for them to be successful. And so they took it upon themselves to make sure that fort became what it was supposed to be. Danor Gerald: Wow. That is phenomenal. And I really just feel like you being able to put this history into that kind of a format really gives it an opportunity to reach the young audiences. Robert Burch: Yes. Danor Gerald: Who are not going to necessarily hear this in school. And so my accommodations to you for coming up with this idea. Where is the novel in terms of publication? How far are you in the development of the project? Robert Burch: Oh, well, we're quite a ways out. Fiona is the main writer on it. And Riley Jensen is the artist that you see here. Lonzo Liggins: Beautiful artwork and great storytelling. Robert Burch: The first time I saw her artwork, I knew that we had to make a commitment to doing this because the work is beautiful. The story is beautiful. We just need to make it come alive. Danor Gerald: That's fantastic. Robert Burch: These are some great guys that we need to remember. Lonzo Liggins: I've got a quick question for you. Do they talk about buffalo soldiers outside of Utah? Are there other- Danor Gerald: In Texas, we talked about them. Fiona Robinson-Hill: It's really big in Texas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Kansas, Montana. But for some reason, Utah, it's just not a big deal. Lonzo Liggins: So we've got to get Utah up to date. Robert Burch: Yes. Danor Gerald: Yeah. Lonzo Liggins: And this is where it starts. Danor Gerald: Yeah. Robert Burch: This is where it starts by educating people. And you guys are doing some work in order to get that done. [inaudible 00:18:23] the most successional military leaders, black major serve here at Fort Douglas. So we need to make sure that story is told. Lonzo Liggins: We'll get back to this conversation on Roots, Race and Culture in just a moment. Speaker 6: PBS Utah is also home to other dynamic podcasts. More Than Half covers some of the most challenging issues facing women in Utah and how it takes all of us to make change happen. Here's a clip from the episode, A Separate Space. Speaker 7: I don't think a lot of people realize that it's just not common for people of color, especially women of color, to see themselves in the stories that we're reading. Speaker 6: Subscribe to More Than Half wherever you get your podcast. Danor Gerald: And now back to Roots, Race and Culture from PBS Utah. Okay. Well, it's time for our extended version of our show about buffalo soldiers. We're here with Fiona and Robert and we're going to talk a little bit more about some of the things that we didn't get to talk about in the broadcast portion. One of the things that I found very interesting as I've learned about this story is that you have three very distinct demographics here. You have the white, mostly Mormon settlers and their slaves. You have black soldiers, many of them earn their freedom by fighting in the... Or by serving in the military, these buffalo soldiers. And then you have the natives. Tell me, how did that work? You have these three different groups blending together here. Fiona Robinson-Hill: It's very interesting because for all these different groups, you actually... You would think there was a lot of conflict, but looking at the history, it was actually fairly peaceful. Danor Gerald: Okay. Fiona Robinson-Hill: I mean, you have your little skirmishes every now and again, when looking at the history. There's some crime going on, but relatively, it's a very peaceful time up in the UN to basin. Danor Gerald: And I heard that they were supposed to leave at some point to do some other campaign, but people wanted them to stay. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Yes. So during the Spanish war, they were... All the buffalo soldiers were supposed to be sent out because it's actually kind of fascinating, the war department, they were the first one sent out because they thought because of the color of the skin, they would be more suited for the climate. Danor Gerald: The climate or something. Okay. Fiona Robinson-Hill: So they were... All the buffalo soldiers were supposed to be sent to the- Danor Gerald: They were front lines, right? Fiona Robinson-Hill: Front lines first. Danor Gerald: They're like Marines, first ones in. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Right. But the white settlers in the UN to basin were like, no, we don't want the calvary to go because we're scared of what's going to happen if they leave. So they like petitioned the war department and one or two units actually stayed at Fort Duchenne. Danor Gerald: Just to kind of keep the piece. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Keep them there. Danor Gerald: Them to make sure that everybody [crosstalk 00:21:31]. Lonzo Liggins: So essentially... First off, they were a little hesitant to have these black soldiers there. Danor Gerald: Right. Lonzo Liggins: Then once they saw the use and once they got to know them a little more, they overcame some of the stereotypes. They said, well, actually, these guys are good bouncers. Robert Burch: Well, and it is a thing of benefit as well as character. Because one of the things when you think about it in 1866, these are men who are newly freed slaves. Danor Gerald: Right. Robert Burch: These are men who a lot of them might have already been free. And some of these men, as we get into the 19 hundreds are men who are first generation freed men, so they have a lot to prove. They want to show that they can get the job done. And so what is happening is that Utah in particularly Salt Lake City is expecting one type of character. But the character that they're finding in the new soldiers are completely different. Danor Gerald: You know, that reminds me of something. I remember doing a documentary with Duris Gray and he told me that I will say late sixties, early seventies, when he was a prominent person, he was in the police chief's office, the police chief of Salt Lake City. And he laid out for him this plan that they had constructed of what they were going to do in Salt Lake City. When we were raided and attacked by Negros. They literally thought that black people were going to come, I don't know, from California or wherever. Robert Burch: When was this? This the sixties? Danor Gerald: This is late sixties, early seventies, that they were just going to come and rape and pillage and act like Vikings and take over Utah. So they had... And now this is firsthand account. He's telling me the police, yeah, we're going to have armed men on these buildings. And maybe women and children are going to go into these buildings. They had an entire plan for this raid that they expected to happen. Robert Burch: That never happened. Danor Gerald: And of course it never happened, but I'm sitting here thinking if they had been teaching about buffalo soldiers in Utah history that might have changed their attitude. Robert Burch: I think it's an American issue where we create a perspective and we expect 99.999% of that population to fit that narrow view. Danor Gerald: That stereotype. Robert Burch: Right. And what they've slowly begin to understand and find is that the fact is that the exception is the corrupt, the bad, the evil. Danor Gerald: Right. Robert Burch: But most people like those soldiers, those are just common men like you and me. Danor Gerald: Right. Robert Burch: These are exceptional soldiers because they came from a background that demanded the best out of them. Like I said, they're just coming out of slavery. Their background is demanding that they be a certain type of person and that it stands all the way up until now, actually. Danor Gerald: Yeah. Fiona Robinson-Hill: And they actually, so when the 24th... When they found out the 24th was actually coming to Salt Lake, there was a Senator who actually like, he went to DC, and he actually went in person to petition the war department. No, we don't want them here. Danor Gerald: The Utah senator. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Yes. Senator Cannon. Danor Gerald: Wow. Fiona Robinson-Hill: And he was like, no, we don't want them here. The people of Salt Lake don't want them here. Lonzo Liggins: And it was his perception. There were perceptions they had at the time. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Right. Lonzo Liggins: What were those perceptions? Did you ever uncover that? Danor Gerald: Well, That was a slave date at that time. First of all, right? Fiona Robinson-Hill: Yeah. Danor Gerald: Yeah. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Yeah. And so, they wrote like slanders newspaper articles. Like they're drunken, disorderly. Danor Gerald: Oh, wow. Fiona Robinson-Hill: They're going to like that same persona of these people. And the word department said oh, too late. There's nothing we can do. Danor Gerald: The orders are already in. Robert Burch: You're stuck with the Negros. Lonzo Liggins: Do you know what's funny? Robert Burch: They're already marching. Lonzo Liggins: It's funny is that I read this... I was researching this some slave stuff back in the day. And I remember I saw these old advertisements they used to have for slavery and the slavery was a business. Robert Burch: Right. Lonzo Liggins: And how they would describe the slaves, how they would talk about African people, they would say, and I remember the words distinctly. They would describe them as affable, friendly, musical, very fun, loving people. Robert Burch: Musical. Danor Gerald: Well, the band was a big deal. The 24th infantry band was one of the best bands in the US military. So there you go, musical. Lonzo Liggins: Then here it is post. Like once they started to talk about freeing slaves, then the descriptions of them got worse. It got darker. It went from affable, friendly, and loving to dark and lazy and sloth. And then they need to be controlled by these slave masters in order to keep them in line. And these stereotypes emerged. Danor Gerald: Go ahead. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Oh, I was going to say, the buffalo soldiers were actually... So the 24th, the 25th, the 9th and the 10th were some of the like best discipline, the most well behaved. They had the lowest desertion rates in the United States army. Danor Gerald: So they had a really good reputation. Fiona Robinson-Hill: They had the best reputation in the United States army at the time. Danor Gerald: No kidding. Lonzo Liggins: Whoa. Fiona Robinson-Hill: And so they had all these people write to the newspapers, like the Salt Lake Tribune, the Salt Lake... or not the Tribune. It wasn't at the time, but the Salt Lake Herald, the [Deserate 00:26:42] news, the Broad Acts and say- Danor Gerald: And what were they saying? Fiona Robinson-Hill: They're saying, hey, this is not true. You guys need to calm down because the 24th is great. You should be so lucky to have the 24th come to Salt Lake. Danor Gerald: I want to say something though. I think that what... And this has to do with our society and our culture these days, I feel like what happens in people's minds, a lot of that perception comes from a sense of guilt. I think it's this feeling of like, well, man, I wonder if... I don't want them to do to us what we did to them. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Right. Danor Gerald: You know what I mean? Like I feel like because of the transatlantic slave trade and the way the whole slave system worked, it really gave people this feeling of like, well, there's going to be retribution. We're going to have to pay for that. But then you see that is the problem, this idea of that, well, if I'm doing it, then everybody else is going to do it too. Robert Burch: Right. And I think that's part of the narrative is that there is to me... Because I served in the military. Danor Gerald: Okay. Robert Burch: And there is to me that feeling that these black men and now in modern day, 30% of all military men ever serving in the United States were African American. Danor Gerald: Wow. Robert Burch: Even though we only 13 to 14% of the population, 30% of us have served in the military. So I think that is that kind of fear that they're well trained black men out there. Danor Gerald: Right. Robert Burch: [crosstalk 00:28:09]. But this is the thing is that we have to understand that these... Our African American culture goes back all the way to the 1600. Danor Gerald: Right. Robert Burch: This is our country. I mean, we are not trying to destroy- Danor Gerald: Right. Right. Robert Burch: ... our country. And so immediately after slavery, you get these people in the first two years, they've built 13 colleges to educate black children. Danor Gerald: Yeah. HBCs. Robert Burch: Right, right. They're coming out of a culture of enslavement, understanding that we have to educate ourselves. We have to prove and get that where we have to prove that we are better than what they say. And so these men that we're sending into the military are men who are coming from a culture that already understands that 100% of us have to be 100 all the time. Danor Gerald: Right. Right. And that still [crosstalk 00:28:57]. That still translates today. I mean, you're not going to maybe necessarily have to have the conversation with your children that I, or some of these gentlemen have with their children. I've told my kids before, because of that mentality that still goes on like, look, to be equal, you have to be better. Robert Burch: You have to be better. Danor Gerald: You know what I mean? There's no... There's no way around that. It has to do with how you deal with police. It has to do with the way you behave in school. Robert Burch: Right. Danor Gerald: All of these things to prove that you are not what people think you are. Robert Burch: Right. Danor Gerald: You have to go above and beyond what their bar is set at. Robert Burch: Yeah. Lonzo Liggins: And I think part of what really helps too, especially with the young black children is to understand history. Robert Burch: Yes. Lonzo Liggins: History's an important thing to understand. What you guys are bringing to the table, talking about this history helps to allow people, especially black children, to understand where they came from and that they did come from people who were hardworking, who did do well. Robert Burch: Right. Lonzo Liggins: And it makes me wonder what is it that Utah's can do now to help bring this story to life? I mean, what is it that you guys are doing on in your organization where we could tell Utah's look, you want to help this- Danor Gerald: How can we get involved? Lonzo Liggins: How can we get involved? How could we be a part of this story being propelled to a different level? Robert Burch: Well, the theme of [similar DC 00:30:20] for me has always been unity through historical truth. So first we had to quit arguing about the lies and have conversations about the truth. So we had 400 years of arguing over the lies. So the point of doing the history is that we now have this truth that we can address and try to draw from it what we can. Like with buffalo soldiers, these are exceptional men who come from a background who expect them to be exceptional. Danor Gerald: Right. Robert Burch: And so that's part of the narrative that we are trying to change here in Utah, through their example. And that's just not in the military, that's been in business, that's been in education. Danor Gerald: Yeah. Robert Burch: The whole nine yards. We've had excellent educators here in Utah. Danor Gerald: Oh. Robert Burch: Who- Danor Gerald: That might be a good subject for another episode. Robert Burch: Exactly. Like whether it's Brenda Burrell or Kathleen Christie. These are women who've spent their entire lives making sure that the black children in Utah are being well educated. Danor Gerald: Wow. Robert Burch: So- Lonzo Liggins: Well, you're trying to build a statue for the buffalo soldiers. Correct? Robert Burch: Well, that's something that we've talked about. We along [crosstalk 00:31:30]. Lonzo Liggins: You would like to. Robert Burch: Yeah. Lonzo Liggins: But, but you're looking for- Robert Burch: Because there are places here in Utah that we could do that. And we've only had some conversations about some of those places that we might want that to be. Danor Gerald: So that's further down the road. Well, I'm really excited to see this novel, this graphic novel when it's done. I'm going to make sure I have a copy and it's on my coffee table. I don't drink coffee, but I got a coffee table and I want to make sure my kids can read it. And I can share it with friends and family when they come by. So I'm just so excited about what you guys are doing and about the quality with which you're doing it. Robert Burch: Yeah. Danor Gerald: And so we appreciate your time and for sharing these stories and just really understanding the shared experience that we all have as people in this community. Whether you're black, native, white, doesn't matter, we all share this history together and it's important for us to recognize that and grow from that. Lonzo Liggins: And we've contributed to the growth of this state too. Danor Gerald: Yeah. Lonzo Liggins: And we continue to contribute to the growth of this state. And it's important that you guys are showing that. Danor Gerald: Yeah. Now, can you give us some more information about [Simidefy 00:32:36], where we can find some more of these projects? Because there's much more to talk about here than we have time for. Robert Burch: Oh yeah. We, we have a great team of research. There's about 40 total that are working on the history of black people in Utah. But if you go to [Simhadki.org 00:32:49], you can go on and just make sure you sign up to go into the museum, sign up for our newsletter. And you'll get a lot of information of all of the projects that we got coming soon. We're going to be working on an equal justice initiative project, a mural for Richmond park, a lot of different projects coming up here in this June that you would see us working on. As well as buffalo soldiers of course. Danor Gerald: I just want to say, thank you guys for sharing this information for bringing this to life for Utah, for the students, for the audience, for the people. I'm so happy that we were able to bring this story to people and share their history. I'm sure these people are happy that their stories being told. Lonzo Liggins: I'd love for my kids' kids to learn about this in school. Fiona Robinson-Hill: Definitely. Danor Gerald: Right. So thank you guys for your time. Fiona Robinson-Hill: You're welcome. Thank you. Lonzo Liggins: All right. That's going to do it for this episode of Roots, Race and Culture. Danor Gerald: Check out our website for even more content, including interviews with some pretty dope [bipo 00:33:49] business owner. You can find all that in a bag of chips at PBSutah.org/roots. Lonzo Liggins: And you'd be doing us a solid if you told all your friends about our show, but until next time y'all, we are out.