Transracial Adoption

Speaker 1: Roots Race and Culture is made possible in part by the contributions to PBS, Utah from listeners like you. Thank you. Speaker 2: (singing) Speaker 1: Hey everybody, you're listening to Roots, Race and Culture, a new podcast from PBS, Utah. Speaker 3: If you like what you hear, we hope you'll subscribe, leave us a review and share with your friends. Speaker 1: All right, now let's get this thing started. Danor Gerald: Welcome to Roots, Race and Culture, a new show on PBS, Utah, where we bring you into candid conversations about shared cultural experiences. I'm Danor Gerald. Lonzo Liggins: Hey, and I'm Lonzo Liggins. Transracial adoption is the joining of racially different parents and children together in adoptive families. We wanted to find out what the transracial adoption experience was like here in Utah. Now we're joined here by two guests to help us explain just that. Danor Gerald: First we have Jeff Mann. You were born in Baltimore, adopted into Boise, Idaho at three weeks old. Is that right? Jeff Mann: I was adopted at three weeks old, grew up in Boise and then at seven, we moved over to Africa. But other than that, I spent time in Idaho in Utah. Danor Gerald: And you also are on a board member or a coordinator of some adoption camps or agencies. Is that right? Jeff Mann: Yeah. Danor Gerald: Well thank you for coming. You have a lot of experience in this, so we appreciate you being here. Jeff Mann: Thank you for having me. Lonzo Liggins: And also we have Jennica [inaudible 00:01:20] Galloway. She's originally from Calcutta, India. She has a Bachelors in Science and Bachelor in Fine Arts from the University of Utah and a Masters of Health Science from John Hopkins University. And you're currently a mental health professional, correct? You know, what's funny is both of you guys... Matter of fact, I just realized everyone on this stage has been Africa. But me, I just wanted to lay that out there. Everyone's been in Africa but me. But before we get started with this guys, there's some information, some context we wanted to get into about the word transracial. 'Cause transracial a lot of people with me in particular, I tend to think of transracial like transgender. That's what I think of. But it actually doesn't mean that. It's obviously transracial with adoption. The word trans just means like on the other side of, or across. So like transgender across the other side, transracial, other side of the racial. Jeff Mann: Transfer to a new bus. Lonzo Liggins: And another thing is the history of transracial adoption in America is pretty lengthy. It goes all the way back to... As far back as, as World war II. They were adopting children from Japanese homes into white American families by the thousands. And then they went on to, I believe it was the Korean war where there was about 15,000 kids that were adopted to white families. And then they also with black families as well, that started in 1968 to 1972, there was like 50,000 or so black kids that were adopted into white homes, right after the civil rights movement. Danor Gerald: This idea of adopting people in from a different culture, it goes all the way back to Moses. I mean, he was a Hebrew and was adopted by an Egyptian, right? And so this is not like a brand new thing. It's been around for centuries, right? So we want to know a little bit about your experiences. So tell us what it was like for you growing up in a white culture in India. Jennica Galloway: Yeah. Well, so my sister was adopted before I was. And my mother also adopted another girl from India between the two of us who unfortunately passed away right before coming to the United States to live here. And so my mom kind of got, I don't know if like transferred or bumped to adopting me through the same agency that she was already working with in India that had, I believe over time expanded so that it could work in different cities in India, outside of just Calcutta. And my mom is also a single mom. So she wasn't married at the time when she was adopting us, which is really incredible considering how much work and how much thought had to go into the process. But I would say for me a lot of different things transpired in my own personal journey to get to the United States. The orphanage that I lived and lost its license to let kids in and out. And so- Lonzo Liggins: How old were you when you were adopted? Jennica Galloway: It was right before my first birthday that I came to the United States, but they had hoped I would come earlier. But after the loss of the other potential daughter that my mom had, the orphanage lost its license to run, to let kids in and out. And eventually it did get renewed but there was a lot of trepidation and fear around whether any kids would come in and out of that orphanage and whether I would even come to the United States. So when my mom finally kind of had me come on the plane and got to hold me, it was a real gift for her. She even named me as such, she believed the name Jennica means God's gracious gift. And so she had kind of really thought through that process of like, "Will I ever get this child? Will she ever come to me?" And my mother knew she wanted to be a mother. So when I came I had my sister who had like lived here a little bit and had grown up here with our family. And I immediately went to live with my grandmother and my mother and my sister. So I had her in my life but realistically growing up in Utah in the east side of Utah, there was a lot of people who just didn't look like me and didn't have any route to the experience that I had had already in my young life. So I kind of went around in my childhood, just assuming everything was like normal, fine. Like, "Oh, I'm just like everybody else to a degree." I'm also a cancer survivor. And so when I went through that experience at a young age, I was also different in that way. So I think I was already kind of in this mindset of like, I'm not exactly like everyone around me. Not everyone around me has to go to the hospital all the time. And everyone around me maybe has as bad eyes as I do. And has to wear these thick glasses or has like their hair growing back in. Lonzo Liggins: So you had a lot of things to deal with beyond just being- Jennica Galloway: Yes. Lonzo Liggins: Adopted into a new culture. There was a lot going on there. Jennica Galloway: Yeah, absolutely. Lonzo Liggins: That's fascinating. So I want to come back to you a little bit later but I want to hear a little bit about what your experience was like. Because Jeff, you not only were in Idaho, which is a pretty wide state. Then you go to Africa, which is then your family's the minority. I mean, what was it like for you? What was your experience? Jeff Mann: Yeah, for me, I think I really started to see race the first time we moved to Africa. And that's when I started to see, okay, here where kids who look like me, but I couldn't speak their language. I didn't understand their culture. And I actually, for myself related more to the white kids that I met in Africa. Danor Gerald: So what age did you go to Africa? Jeff Mann: So when I was seven, we moved to Zimbabwe and we spent two years there. And then we moved back to Idaho and my eighth grade year at the end of middle school, I ended up... My dad was called as an LDS mission president. And so I moved to South Africa. Lonzo Liggins: To go from Boise and then to step into to Africa. Wow. How was the transition with your parents? I mean, did they prepare you for that? I mean, how- Jeff Mann: My mom and my dad did a lot of stuff when we were in Boise to they'd invite other black kids over to the house. She did a lot of stuff at the school for black history month and Martin Luther King Day, and tried to get the school involved and to do stuff to help us kind of feel at home. Lonzo Liggins: So they were... Your parents were active in helping? Because that's the question I have for both of you too, is like how active were your parents in keeping you know- Danor Gerald: Connected to your- Lonzo Liggins: Connected to your race, right? I mean, you grew up with black parents I assume. I had one black parent. I luckily had him, he was able to give me kind of guide me through my racial experience. So how was that for both of you? Danor Gerald: You've got the African American community around you, even if it's a small one, because it is African American. But I'm thinking for you, Jennica. I mean, being from India, it must have been really difficult to find something. Jennica Galloway: Yeah, so my mom used to send us to this thing called India camp and I really still to this day like don't know exactly what it was and what we did. Like I remember what we did. Danor Gerald: India camp. Jennica Galloway: Yeah. Danor Gerald: Okay, that's interesting. Jennica Galloway: And she also had us with other Indian adoptees because she had friends who had adopted from India as well. And we kind of... They called us the sweethearts club, not everyone was from India. Some other people were from other parts of Asia or South Asia, but I was the youngest. So by the time I came along that group was a lot older than me. And so I wasn't really as a part of it very long. And so finding community was pretty hard for me because I think in my white community, I felt like very... Like I could assimilate into that community by sounding right, dressing correct. And I liked a lot of the things that my white neighbors and friends liked. I liked to dance and play the violin and sing. Lonzo Liggins: So you felt comfortable in that area, but it doesn't sound like you necessarily had a connection to your roots. Jennica Galloway: Right. And like, I never learned the language. I remember being in high school or so, and sort of feeling this like deep seated resentment around. Like, why don't I know the language of where I'm from. Why do I only have some pictures and maybe one story to look at or to hold. And so I think my mom really tried to celebrate that we were Indian but she's also not of that culture. So she couldn't really connect us to the foods or the things that were inherently intrinsic to a cultural experience that you can't really gain outside of being in it if that makes sense. Lonzo Liggins: Right, [inaudible 00:10:12] challenge. Jeff Mann: For me, I think I like what you said because my parents did a lot to take us to a barber shop and show us okay, here's where you can get your haircut. And at the barber shop, I met a lot of black guys who were there. The barber shop in Boise is right next to Boise State. So a lot of the football players were there. And so I saw guys who looked like me. We tried a normal hair salon when you were younger and a girl was cutting my brother's hair and got halfway through and started crying and I just can't do this. And so those experiences there, but then again, moving over to Africa, every place knew how to cut our hair. The thing that was interesting was moving to South Africa. You had... It was right after apartheid. And so the white kids sat together, the black kids sat together. The Indian kids sat together. Over there they call them the colored kids, kids that were half black, half white sat together. And so I found myself... I played Xbox what I did in America. So I hung out with the white kids. I played sports. I played on the rugby team. I hung out with the white kids. My brother who was also adopted he's three hours younger than me. He was adopted from Atlanta. And so were twins by adoption. And so he found himself hanging out with the black kids at school and fitting into their culture and what they were doing. But what we found was we couldn't speak either of the languages, African or Zulu. We picked up some of it, but we didn't speak their languages, but we also didn't fit that norm of, "Hey, y you shouldn't be hanging out with the white kid. You shouldn't be hanging out with the black kids." And so I found myself hanging out with just the kids I played sports with. And the thing that- Lonzo Liggins: Just to find your own group to be with. Jeff Mann: The thing that was nice in South Africa is they have a thing where every sports team has to have a certain amount of kids of color on the team. And so I find myself not knowing the sport, but being able to play on the team because there was only one of the black- Lonzo Liggins: Just [inaudible 00:12:08]. Jeff Mann: Exactly. Danor Gerald: I wanted to give you guys perspective. So we spoke to former mayor, Jackie Biskupski and asked her what her experience was like as an adoptive parent of a black child. And here was the response that she gave us. And we want you guys to check it out and give us your feedback on that if you would. Jeff Mann: Awesome. Speaker 5: As a parent who has adopted a child of a different race, I can tell you that love is not enough. I have to raise my son, seeing him for exactly who he is and understand that my white privilege does not transfer to him. Yes, it is difficult to have conversations with my son about the harsh realities he will face, but inevitably he is going to feel the pain of racism. So it is my responsibility to prepare him as best I can. I didn't save my son from anything when I adopted him, I was in my 40s and about to give up on becoming a parent when he was brought into my life. My son is such a blessing and my eyes have been opened in a profound way because of him. I have always been an advocate and an ally for minorities, but now I am an anti-racist. My role has evolved all because I was chosen to be a mother to my beautiful son. Lonzo Liggins: Wow, that's beautiful. Danor Gerald: What do you think? Jennica Galloway: That actually just strikes me because I've had conversations with people in my adult life who have reflected that too. And I remember growing up hearing all the time like, "Aren't you so lucky? You're so lucky." You're so lucky. You're so lucky that... And it sort of started to become this thing. Like, "Oh, I'm really lucky." This thing was not something that I was inherent to have this life that I have. It's not something that I deserved or was owed. Danor Gerald: It's like... Lonzo Liggins: Like if somebody roll the dice and you just struggled. Jennica Galloway: Yeah. And like, I'm so lucky that this white woman decided to take care of me and raise me in this white community. And so I had a friend say a similar thing not long ago where she said, if you find a lucky penny, you don't tell the penny, it's lucky that you found it. You're lucky because you found it right. And she was talking about her own adopted children. Like they're not lucky. I'm the lucky one to have them. And sorry, I hope I don't get too emotional. But I think for me, it's been like a journey of learning that because it also seeds right into your sense of worth, right? Like your sense of value. Did I have value when I was left in the orphanage by my biological mother. And then what value do I have now when I'm kind of brought here? And my mom has been so incredible at showing me how valuable I am to her. That like my value is inherent within me and she sees that. But in the culture that I've lived in and grown up in, I haven't always felt that way. I've always felt like I've been right in the middle. Like I don't belong here, but I don't belong here either. And so where do I place a sense of who I am and what that means? And so I... Oh, go ahead. Lonzo Liggins: I'm sorry I don't want to interrupt you, but we have another parent. And thank you for sharing that. That's very personal and so good to hear that perspective. Rachel Patton, who is a clinical social worker as well as an adoption coordinator is an adoptive mother. And we want to hear from her and it would love for you to chime in Jeff after we hear her story, Rachel Patton: I think the biggest thing that I could recommend to families adopting outside of their race is number one, be prepared and know that you can do what's necessary to make that work and to make your children feel included. And mirroring to me is the biggest thing, making sure that your children see other people of their race. We take our son to the barber shop. I take my daughter to a black beautician, making sure that you are going to any cultural events where they're exposed hooking up with other adoptive families or if you have friends of other races. I think those are things that you have to make sure that you either have, or you are willing to seek out and expose your children to you before you adopt outside of your race. Lonzo Liggins: Wow. Jeff, so what do you think she's given us- Jeff Mann: She's hit barber shop. Danor Gerald: She knows. What do you think about that? Jeff Mann: I love what she said and I go back to the barber shop it for a young black kid having their hair for the first time you just see a different light in their eyes. It's an excitement. And they kind of feel at home, but I think she's right. I think parents have to realize when you adopt a kid outside your race, you're not only doing that for the short term, but your whole family's going to be affected. Whether it's relatives, whether it's friends of your family. I have a bunch of niece and nephews and when I take them to the grocery store by myself people may look at me different because there's this black guy with these small white kids that are crying or upset.What is he doing with them? But it's the whole thing of you've now brought this new culture into your life and you need to adopt the culture, whether it's the music, the food, whether it's the holidays. I find myself having to kind of be a chameleon when I'm around people that are black, I act a certain way, got to be when I'm around people that are white, I act a certain way- Speaker 4: But we don't do that. Lonzo Liggins: And that's an African American experience. That's for all people of color, I'm sure you have to do that as well. That's the experience that all people of color in America deal with and... That's all we do. Speaker 4: We all do that. Lonzo Liggins: There's people don't even know what that means, but I'm thinking of a one time when I was taking my child to kindergarten for the first time we are sitting there and some other parents from the neighborhood are there and our kids are getting ready to walk in and we're all sitting. And there was this little black kid who had to be adopted, because there were no other black parents around, but me and no shoes on ashy, hair's not taken care of well properly. And me and another friend of mine who's a white guy were sitting there and we were talking about that. And it was hard for me to see that kid not really being taken care of properly. Speaker 4: Yeah, right. I've seen that before too. Yeah where you're like man, he needs to get a hair and you all talk about hair so much, it makes me miss. I've been my own barbershop for the last 10 years. But I think the thing that stands out the most to me within these experiences that you guys have is I'm really curious to know what it's like on a daily basis, like when you started dating and what it was like in your neighborhoods. I mean what was that experience like or interacting with other people of your own race when it came to for example dating and in high school, can you share a little bit about that? Jennica Galloway: Sure, yeah. So I grew up in a white community and I also grew up in a religious community, not LTS, but so all the people around me in my community were white. So I was like, oh, those are the people available to me to date. I didn't really even start to encounter people in my own of my own race until I was an adult. And then when I moved to India to work there, one thing that I distinctly remember is the feeling I felt when the plane started filling up with people from India, when we were leaving from like the last leg of the flight was everyone from India going to where I was going. And suddenly I went from being kind of this like unique, interesting, oh what's going on with her? To like one just like everybody else, except I couldn't speak the language like you had said. And I clearly didn't fit in. And I remember speaking to this really lovely woman on the plane to India she and I talked for a while and she asked me about like, oh are you married or are you... And I was married at the time and said like, yeah. And she's like, oh to someone from India kind of like made that assumption. And I said like, oh no, he's American. Speaker 4: He's Mormon. Jennica Galloway: And so I think to me, I never even saw that as an option to be totally truthful. I thought like the world around me was so white that I was like that's my option. Speaker 4: We'll get back to this conversation on Roots, Race & Culture in just a moment. Speaker 10: PBS Utah is also home to other dynamic podcasts, more than half covers some of the most challenging issues facing women in Utah and how it takes all of us to make change happen. Here's a clip from the episode, a separate space. Speaker 11: I don't think a lot of people realize that it's just not common for people of color, especially women of color to see themselves in the stories that were reading. Speaker 10: Subscribe to more than half wherever you get your podcast. Speaker 2: And now back to Roots, Race & Culture from PBS Utah. Speaker 4: I think we should continue on the dating thing. Let's go to- Speaker 3: Yeah we didn't get your side of the dating thing. Jennica Galloway: Yeah I really, really want to hear Jeff's side. Lonzo Liggins: Yeah let's Jeff talk us take us through your experience of dating in high school that and also like finding friends and people to connect with and connecting with other black kids too- Danor Gerald: Utah. Yeah not necessarily in Africa that side. You mean like here. Lonzo Liggins: I'm talking about in Utah. Well Idaho, right? That's where you grew up. I'm just curious as what that is because I mean, I grew up in a primarily white community and connecting with black kids after connecting with white kids over a long period of time became awkward. So I'm curious as to what your experience was like with that. Jeff Mann: Yeah, for sure I find myself, if I look at Idaho dating in high school was, I mean I dated lots of girls had fun times, school dances and stuff. The parts I felt most uncomfortable is when I was going to pick up the girls from the house, from the parents and doing that whole part- Speaker 3: Dad sitting there with a shotgun, cleaning it when you walk in the door. Jennica Galloway: Bullet with his name on the- Jeff Mann: The other thing for me though was finding I'm super comfortable with myself. So I would date girls who were much taller than me. I mean, I took a girl to a school dance, probably 6.2 and just towered over me and we had to for the pitchers we staggered, I was on the top of the gazebo and she was down here and stuff but just- Danor Gerald: Did you ever date black women? Jeff Mann: Not in high school.I think I dated one who cheated on me. That's the story for another time, but dated one in high school. But I found myself when I got to Utah, I was in college and I was at Utah valley university and I was dating several girls, met several black girls, but I found myself for some reason I don't know what it was, but mainly dating white girls. Danor Gerald: It was you were more comfortable though that's what you were, you were used to- Jeff Mann: But also looking at the... In Utah, the bubble of the LDS culture where most of the girls in that culture were white. And also living down in Utah County. I was kind of dating the environment that I found myself in. Lonzo Liggins: Right, the full of options was limited. Jeff Mann: Yeah. Lonzo Liggins: I can understand that experience. And so did you feel like when you did date any other girls from other cultures that they kind of had expectations of what you would be like are you black enough for some of them and- Jeff Mann: It's interesting, I found myself in Utah kind of changing kind of who I was to fit the environment. I started to drive a truck, listen to only country music, going to country concerts- Lonzo Liggins: You went in deep. Jeff Mann: Yeah, buying guns and stuff. And so I found myself- Lonzo Liggins: Alienated from system. I don't know what you got going out here. Jeff Mann: Exactly and so the last six years when I started doing the adoption camps that I helped with out in Denver, I'd go out there and I'd meet these beautiful girls from India and Haiti and Africa and going out with them and having a good time and- Speaker 3: And they were adopted too, though. Danor Gerald: I want to hear more about these adoption camps in a second here, but I want ask you guys a quick question while we're on this topic, because you touched on something that made me really think. Did you two ever feel... Did you ever feel tokenized? Jennica Galloway: As in dating? Danor Gerald: I know I have felt that in Utah. Where I'm like, people want to date me just because they want to kind of get a taste. I was day and I were driving one time and I was telling them how like often the white women that are here will want to date me because I'm like an intro package into the black thing. I'm kind of light skinned and I'm not really as black as like they're- Lonzo Liggins: You are a gateway- Danor Gerald: He was like gateway intro package into the black experience. Lonzo Liggins: That's a little black. Start with him. Jennica Galloway: He's my speed. Danor Gerald: I mean I'll transfer over to Jeff. I mean, does that equate with you guys like that feeling of being told- Speaker 3: Jenica tell us about that tokenized feeling. Danor Gerald: Because I know you touched, you were like- Jennica Galloway: Yeah when I was in high school, sometimes I feel like people would date me because I was like the rebellious choice. Like I was an LDS and I was a brown girl. So it was like, Ooh she's the exotic spicy- Lonzo Liggins: I knew you're going to say exotic. Jennica Galloway: Like I got and even like adults in my life would be like, oh, well they like you because you're exotic. And I was like I don't really know what that means. For a long time I'm like, oh that's a good thing. Like that's cool. But then I started to realize- Danor Gerald: What you kind is. Jennica Galloway: I didn't understand exactly what that meant. So does that just put me in a certain box. Like am I not myself? Am I just this? And I had a... And I've had friends growing up, be like this is our brown friend. This is our cute brown friend. Like that was my title, That's who I was. Like all of my other friends got to be known by their name. And she likes to do this. And it was like, this is Jessica and she's the brown friend. And I think that's been a thing where, and I mentioned it earlier too, about getting on the plane to India where it's this weird. It's not just bad though. It was like also this kind of like, oh people notice me, like people are like oh she's different. And in a way that was something that I really enjoyed. But then when I moved to Baltimore to go to graduate school and I was around other smart, really driven minorities, people of color suddenly it was like, we don't really care exactly what you look like or what your deal is. We want to know like what you do, who you are, what you bring to the table. Lonzo Liggins: So the depth of your identity began to be more important versus like how you look. Jennica Galloway: Yes and I didn't understand how meaningful that was to me until I was in that situation where I was like, wow I'm being seen for the fullness of my person. And when I moved to Africa and Asia and these other places, I had worked prior to graduate school, I had the same feeling, but it was when I was in grad school that I was finally able to say like, oh I see what this is. This is about my identity. Lonzo Liggins: So important for a woman. Danor Gerald: I think. I mean in America, this is a little generalized, but I feel like in our culture a lot of times we like to define women by what they look like and what they're wearing and all of these things. I mean, you're beautiful, but like that isn't the whole of who you are. Jennica Galloway: Right and I think like in a culture where you're the different non-white person, it happens to this like other degree and this other way where that becomes who you are. Danor Gerald: Do you two feel like you missed out on something and looking back at it now. Now that you're adults and you've been able to see sort of the totality of your growing up, do you feel like you missed something? Jeff Mann: I personally I think yes and no. Yes for the point of I have my biological mom on Facebook. And so I can see where she lives and the family and the interactions and kind of see. That side of life that I don't know, having grown up in LDS family, I don't drink and I don't smoke. And so those are all things that I really haven't experienced. But on the other hand, I feel like having be adopted, especially to Utah, there's a lot more in my life happening because if something happens that involves the black race here in Utah, I have tons of people who will reach out to me and ask, okay how should we react? What should our response be? It happened two years ago when we had the protest in Salt Lake- Lonzo Liggins: And then you have to represent the whole. Jeff Mann: Exactly, and so now I'm thinking, okay whatever I say these white people are going to follow or they're either going to, this is their response. And so I had people calling me that hadn't talked to in years. Hey, if I ever said anything to you that was racist, I apologize. Or I'd be at cafe Rio and a guy in front of me, hey time are hard let me buy your food. Going to the grocery store I had a lady, hey let me help you find all your groceries. And she went with aisle to aisle till I found everything- Lonzo Liggins: Going out of their way. Jeff Mann: Going out of their way when in reality, that made things more awkward than they were. But also being in the LDS religion, I had anything that happens to do with race within the church. Now I have that dynamic, not only are they talking to me as a black person, but now based off my religion, now they want to know my experience. And so I've had to really monitor what I post what I say, what I do, because I know there's 10 families out- Lonzo Liggins: There to suppress him. Jeff Mann: Yeah, there's families out there that are, hey this is what he said. So this must be cut and dry. What we need to do, this is what he believes. Lonzo Liggins: I imagine there is a certain lack of a support system. Like you can't just go to your dad and your mom or your siblings, and talk about some of those challenges that you might be facing culturally for being black or for being a person of color, because they don't really fully understand that experience, right? I mean, my dad will call me and talk to me during that whole time period and we would just talk through stuff about how we were feeling and that sort of thing. And it's difficult when the majority of people, I would imagine don't quite understand what you're experiencing, especially when they're in your own family. Did you feel like your sisters could be there for you since- Jennica Galloway: Yeah, I mean my sister is very supportive of me and she's- Lonzo Liggins: But she's from India as well adopted. Jennica Galloway: She is yeah. But I mean, we're just different people. So we process things differently. She's also in the mental health field so my whole family is my mom's a psychologist as well. But I think with my mom, what's been really interesting is watching that transition for her over the past few years. And we used to not really talk about the racist experiences, my sister and I had. And I think a lot of it had to do with my mom's desire to protect us and to feel like she was protecting us from a world that was harsh. And then over time we kind of were telling her like, no this was our lived experience. We experienced racism pretty regularly. And it was very hard. We had very hard conversations for a couple years, but- Lonzo Liggins: So you had to wake your mom up to some realities that she wasn't aware of- Jennica Galloway: 2020 really like... Oh sorry, Trump's election really pushed that. And then 2020 and like the way things have gone and George Floyd's death. And my mom is now like very engaged in anti-racism work and understanding her own role in the way things have transpired in the world but also in, I think our lives as her daughters, but she had told me at one point, like when I adopted from India, I didn't think like, oh I'm adopting Indian children. She's like I had friends who had adopted from there and that was where I was drawn to adopt. But I wasn't thinking about it that way at the time. And so there's been a lot of growth in our family, but I think- Danor Gerald: Do you wonder if that's true though? Do you think she was not thinking about that at all? Jennica Galloway: I think that- Danor Gerald: It's ind of like when I hear a white person say, I don't ever think about race, it's like yeah you do. Jennica Galloway: Yeah I think that she thought like, oh these are wonderful, beautiful children. She didn't think about all the elements. Lonzo Liggins: She didn't see all the other things that come- Jennica Galloway: Yeah kind of like what the other guest had mentioned, right? Like you need to think about all the nuance things and excuse me, she had mentioned that she hadn't really done that but over time she's grown into it. I think for me, it's just been also not just family members, but just like you go out in the world and you're like telling even friends like yeah this is how this feels for me. Or watching these Asian women get killed strikes me at a certain level. And your friends who are people of color are like, yes. And they don't have to say anything else you can feel that they get it. And then your other friends, it's like you know that they have empathy toward it and they care, but they don't get it. Danor Gerald: Well, I have the same question for you though. Do you feel you missed out on anything? Jennica Galloway: Say that again? Danor Gerald: Do you feel you missed out on anything? Being adopted into a white family, do you feel like there's something, there was a portion of you that was missed? Jennica Galloway: I think as a kid, yeah absolutely. There were times when I really felt resentful. I felt this weird mixture of, I have to be grateful and I am grateful and I'm so lucky but I'm resentful of that in a way as well, because there was so much, I didn't gain. I didn't get the language, I didn't get to wear the clothes, I didn't get to eat the food. I didn't get to speak with people in my culture. And I think for me, there's a unique element too, where I don't know my biological family. I may not ever find her. And so I think feeling like I'll never get that chance to ever have to eat and see- Danor Gerald: That connection. Jennica Galloway: Yeah. And I've thought like that movie Ryan, I remember being so jealous of him thinking like and I had read the book first, but thinking, gosh he found her or he went back to her. But if I found my biological mom, now she'd be a stranger to me. Like I wouldn't know her, but at the same time I have this really deep internal sense inside me that I would recognize her at some level- Danor Gerald: Sure DNA. Jennica Galloway: Yeah. So I think that's something that I've always wanted, but I've never had. And so there's a little bit of that, but I also know that had I not been adopted, I may not have survived. So there's a lot going on there as well where I'm really grateful. Speaker 3: Let me- Danor Gerald: Go forward. Speaker 3: I just want to being, hear your experience. What would you say are some of the things that people in our community here in Utah can learn and what they should do to help other people in your situations, kids who are adopted into a different culture, they're... How can we be more sensitive and help them with the hard things that you guys have dealt with? Danor Gerald: That's a good Point. Jeff Mann: I think one of the biggest things is just education. Shows like this podcasts, adoptions, foundations camps because one of the things that I see is some parents... I don't know if you experienced this. I feel like some parents have adopted kids, they go the extreme. So I've talked to parents before where they made sure their kid attended the school where the principal had to be black. Now the piano teacher had to be black, the football coach had to be black.They changed- Lonzo Liggins: That sounds most different than the regular- Jeff Mann: They changed the kids' life so much. So he could see black figures, which I understand what their reasoning, but I'm like, don't go out of your way to do it. You can bring people into their lives to mentor the kids. And to help them to understand who they are and their culture, but you're kind of not laying that kid live in authentic real life. And so when those kids grow up and they turn 18 and they go away from their family, your last name if it was white, no longer protects you. So once you're out there, people see you for who you are. I remember going to the country club with my parents down in St. George. And we went and had good food. And I went one time without my parents. And they saw the name and my dad's picture on the family account, but they saw me. And then there was a question of, well what this is for members only, what are you doing here? And I said, well you can look my name up. But I didn't re think about the fact that, hey my last name doesn't fit the way I look and the picture of my dad, doesn't key into who I am. Lonzo Liggins: Yeah, so they're thinking stolen ID or something like that. Jennica Galloway: Trying to break- Jeff Mann: And it was quite interesting. I took my dad two years ago over to India and I was in a store somewhere and our driver was asking my dad, he is like how is that your son is? Is your wife black. And just didn't understand that hey, this is my dad who is white, who's older and stuff. And so I think really it's just about education and people understanding, okay adoption but now what does that mean? And for the kids, okay when you leave your parents, how do you survive? How do you go places? I could take you both to a restaurant in Provo during the football season. And I've had people approach me, hey great game last night or good luck tomorrow and stuff. And so it's helping kids understand, okay if you're going to live in Utah, here's some things you should know or prepare yourself that you're going to hear, you're going to see. And so that's one of the reasons that really helped me get into personal training and working with athletes is I had this assumption of he's black. So he must be involved with sports, he must have played some level of sports. And so I had parents who'd send their kids to me, would never ask, what are your credentials? What are your experience? Who have you worked with? But they just saw this black guy, so he must know how to train. I in fact had a few months ago I had a dad bring a group of kids in. And he said to me, after the work, I said is it bad that when I saw you wearing a skinny white guy and you were a black guy, I was happy. And in my head, I said, no it's not bad because now I have some new clients. But I'm thinking there's some great trainers out there who may not look like me. And so I spent a lot of time working out and doing stuff because of where I live and the stereotype that, hey if I look a certain way, I can gain more clients. Whereas I feel like if I wasn't living in Utah my whole things I would do the way I would probably dress and interact and- Danor Gerald: Could be different. Jeff Mann: Yeah would be completely different. Lonzo Liggins: So you could... On the bright side of things, you could be like me where they look at me and think I'm athletic and then they get to meet me and they're like, oh wait nevermind he's not athletic. The big disappointing look on their face and I'm like, sorry I'm just kind of a nerd. What about you? Jennica Galloway: Yeah, I think that's a really great point about education. What struck me when you asked the question was how do you help... How do you see your child and how do you help them see themselves? Because I think that was a thing that I struggled with a lot was like, how do I see myself? Like where do I actually fit in this array of people around me. Like in my dance group full of mostly white girls, but they're all really nice and playing in the violin. And like, how do you foster what your kid- Lonzo Liggins: Good question, what you're saying, I'm sorry [inaudible 00:40:17]. When were you guys aware of your race? Like what age did you become like I'm brown, I'm this, I'm that? Because I'm sure you played with white kids most of the time. Was there a point where that just kicked in? Jennica Galloway: Yeah, I think for me it was immediate because people would say stuff to me. What about you? Jeff Mann: Mine was, I'd say honestly elementary school. I was inside during recess, doing arts and crafts. Because my parents had four kids before they adopted me and my brother and they didn't really do any sports. So I was doing art stuff and going to camp invention and making robots and stuff. And one of my buddies said, hey come play football. And they gave me and I ran past everyone and scored and then kind of started getting into sports more. And that's where I met a few of the kids who were black. And so that's really when I started to see, hey your genetics, you're a little bit different. Lonzo Liggins: You're a little different, honestly. I think a good way to wrap this up is to ask you guys, is there an upside to transracial adoptions? Jennica Galloway: Yeah. I think that I've been really digging into transracial adoption. I think there's like actually people really on different sides saying like, no don't do it. And people saying there's a lot of benefit. I think that there's a there's space for benefit to be there. I don't want to say that it's inherently great and inherently not. I would say that there's always the potential for the family that you're creating and any family to really foster and raise people who are aware, thoughtful- Lonzo Liggins: Resilient. Jennica Galloway: Engaged, resilient, and also kind of to my point about identity and what I was saying before, around seeing yourself like how do we help the people in our lives, our kids feel like, hey exactly who you are as you. So I'm not asking you to be that culture that you're from. I'm not asking you to be the culture that you're living in. I'm asking you to see exactly who you are now, and that person has value. And who you want to be, the dreams you want to achieve, the things you want to build within yourself, the community you want to build around you, that all matters. And I'm here to help you be a part of that and do that. So I think that there's potential for that in any home. And I do think that if you adopt someone from overseas or from a different race than you, or a different culture, it's up to you before you even make that decision to know that you're going to be inviting conversations and maybe witnessing pain and holding space for things that maybe you hadn't held before in your own life. And that requires both of you to meet in that space and be vulnerable and grow there so that both of you can feel like you're healing and growing into the life that is now yours. It's not either culture. It's your own culture now that you've created and your own person that you're creating within the world. So I don't think it's inherently bad or good. So I don't know if that's a great answer. Lonzo Liggins: Well, that's great answer. Danor Gerald: No, choose a good one. What About you, Jeff? Jeff Mann: I think transformational adoption. It creates conversation and it automatically brings cultures together. And I think by doing that, parents and families have to realize you're going to have to learn a new culture, but also you're going to have to help a kid learn your culture. And so I think it's also a great conversation piece because if my parents are seen with, I'll give you an example. When my dad picked us up as a little kid flying home, he said the black people would come up and talk to him and, oh the baby's so cute. But he said, he'd get these weird looks from the white people as if did his daughter get in trouble with the black guy or why is this older guy with this black baby? And I think that enables you to have a conversation and to talk about transracial adoption and talk about why you wanted to adopt and the benefits of adopting. And so I think it's an easy way to talk to people and to get people are going to approach you no matter what you do when you're involved with transracial adoption. And that's why I think the education side comes because now you can have a conversation with someone who may never have approached you before, and then it also put families in places. I don't think they ever would've thought of. A few years ago my dad was down in Las Vegas at a protest. And I don't think if he had black kids, he may have not have found himself in that situation out there protesting and talking to people. Yeah. And just the people in my life they've reached out to me with everything they see happening. And now I have conversations with people who may not have ever asked the question or felt like, hey he must be hurting let me reach out. Let me see how he feels about this. And so I think it's huge across America, but now we have to look deeper and be like, okay, not only the transracial, but now especially here in Utah, now you have religion as a huge thing. So you have to teach, them one thing. Now you have to teach them race within a religion. Now you have to teach them race without a religion. And so there's a huge dynamic here in Utah that I think transracial families have to look at because I know several transracial families who, because of that have left the church. And I know some that are still in the church, but it's a whole different dynamic. I served my LDS mission in west Africa. And I remember going to see white guys that I served with who had returned missionaries and people would did he baptize this guy over in Africa? Now he's here at the... Not thinking- Lonzo Liggins: And you were companions exactly. Jeff Mann: Exactly. And so that's something kind of there's a lot of baggage and stuff you have to deal with. And so I think really I love to see families adopt kids, but I also love to see families prepare yourself, educate yourself, get yourself ready. And so that way, when your kid does have a question, you have an answer. Or you know someone that can answer that for them. Jennica Galloway: Yeah and I think remembering that like the kids that come into your life are full beings. They're their own people and they're not just like blank slates that you get to like at your name on it's- Danor Gerald: And your beliefs because I see a lot of... On a negative aspect of this, I've seen a lot of white parents who are these like ultra right conservatives who are just like taking these kids and trying to mold them into the black that they want this child to be. How their ideal version of what they want black people to sound and act and be like, and that bothers me- Jennica Galloway: Well not kind of- Danor Gerald: That really, it bothers me that poor child is not going to be able to have a different perspective on that. They have this sort of Karen ask white parent who's sitting there saying to their kid, you need to not be a victim and you need to not think about this, you need to know. And this poor kid's not knowing anything that's going on. So he's talked to view any black person that comes at him as an enemy. As a person, who's a combatant, who's trying to convince him to be a victim. What all they're saying is hey there may or may not be injustice in this world and you can be a part of it, but- Jennica Galloway: Well, and I think it's just like, they sometimes talk about how kids on adoption videos are like, oh adopt me I'm so cute. Like even kind of that whole thing, like the kids that are- Lonzo Liggins: In the movies, they portray them that way. Jennica Galloway: Yeah, like the kids that are in the world that are needing or in the position to be adopted are valuable because of who they are. They don't have to perform. They don't have to be a certain way and they don't come as a blank slate for you to just infuse who you want them to be into. They are real people- Danor Gerald: Isn't is like that in- Jennica Galloway: To blend that. Danor Gerald: It's I mean, I've got several kids and they're all different. Lonzo Liggins: Yeah. Danor Gerald: We have to recognize that same thing when we adopt kids. I'll just we'll wrap up. But one of the big takeaways that I feel I'm getting out of this is that we need to get out of this idea of judging a book by its cover. Of making a decision about what somebody's going to be or what we think they are before we ask questions and educate ourselves and get to know who that person really is personally, on their own identity. And transracial adoption is like the perfect platform for people to understand that because it provides all of those questions and all of those preconceived notions that we have in our head, it provides a chance to us to flip that all around and spin it on its top. And for us to stop deciding what we think a person is or what they like or who they are before we even get to know them. So I thank you guys for sharing these experience- Lonzo Liggins: Yes indeed. Danor Gerald: And this has been so enjoyable and I'm sure our audience is going to want to- Lonzo Liggins: I agree, great stories, guys. Great insight and feedback into this whole thing. And it's opened my mind a lot more and giving me a new perspective on it. So thank you so much for joining us you too. Jennica Galloway: Yeah, thank you so much. Been a great time. Speaker 4: All right. That's going to do it for this episode of Roots, Race & culture. Speaker 3: Check Out our website for even more content, including interviews with some pretty dope bipo business owners. You can find all that in a bag of chips at pbsutah.org/fruits. Speaker 4: And you'd be doing us a solid if you told all your friends about our show, but until next time you a we are out.